W3C

Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

09 Feb 2012

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Ashok, Jonathan_Rees, JeniT, Masinter, DKA, ht, noah
Regrets
Yves
Chair
Noah
Scribe
Larry

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 09 February 2012

scribenic: Larry

<scribe> scribe: Larry

<JeniT> I might not be able to make next week

Future regrets, Jonathan 2/23

agenda review

<ht> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/23

approval of minutes

<noah> Minutes of the 19th of January: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/01/19-minutes

RESOLUTION: minutes of 19 Jan approved

<noah> Minutes from Feb. 2: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/02/02-minutes

RESOLUTION: Minutes of 2/2 approved

administrative items

no news on these

Action-563, note to Jeff

<noah> ACTION-563?

<trackbot> ACTION-563 -- Noah Mendelsohn to arrange for periodic TAG key issues reports to Jeff per June 2011 F2F Due 2011-10-15 -- due 2012-01-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/563

<noah> Proposed text: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2012Feb/0012.html

<DKA> I largely agree with Robin's comments.

<DKA> I suggest removing the reference to Flash as it's a red herring.

<DKA> (IMO)

<noah> Robin offers revised text: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2012Feb/0023.html

<DKA> I would suggest an intro paragraph.

Larry: shorter is better than longer
... i think Robin's is shorter, and removing an irrelevant sentence from it would make it shorter still, which is good.
... I also think we should delete the sentence about SSL and privacy and SPDY because it's controversial and not helpful.

<DKA> "The Web has become an application deployment platform for 'desktop' devices. It has been held back from this role by the rise of proprietary app formats and closed app stores. As a result, much content and many user experiences are being locked into proprietary formats and applications and are not part of the Web. This is clearly a threat to the open Web. What can be done to make the Web the preferred development and deployment environment for these types of applications?"

<noah> Remove the whole sentence, or just the phrase about Flash?

The whole sentence, the discussion about proprietary vs. "open" is interesting but complex

<noah> (Quoting from Robin's email) "This is primarily due to the fact that, as it was with Flash for over a decade, it is faster to ship a proprietary feature than the same one through a specification with multiple interoperable implementations."

Larry: we can raise the issue without taking a stand on a complex issue

<noah> I actually think the interesting point is that many proprietary features are introduced in conjunction with hardware changes and/or proprietary back-end (cloud) infrastructure (e.g. Siri)

Larry: It's an interesting discussion that i'd love to have but we haven't had
... There's an interesting question about development of featurees in an "open" way
... "Standards follow innovation"

noah: we could put weasel words

Larry: "This is primarily due to " => "This may well be due to "

noah: I think what's happening in the mobile space is much deeper. People are building hardware/software/server stack and developing it, and then bringing it to the standard.
... part of what made Siri interesting was the proprietary noise cleanup that's implemented in proprietary hardware in the CPU chip. And that what happens in the open space is going to be a generation behind.

dka: in fact, what's happening in mobile is different. On the desktop innovation was moving to the web, but the innovation in mobile (and tablets) is moving into apps

<jar> noah: Anything we do on the web is going to be a generation behind. DKA: But on mobile all the innovation is happening in web. (?)

dka: device APIs and touch events working group... this is part of a good story, mitigation of the threat is happening already

<noah> Therefore, it's hard to standardize audio cleanup unless the underlying capability becomes widespread.

Larry: change of opinion, i'm ok with shipping Robin's text as is.

<noah> We agree without objection to remove the pharse: "as it was with Flash for over a decade," from "This is primarily due to the fact that, as it was with Flash for over a decade, it is faster to ship a proprietary feature than the same one through a specification with multiple interoperable implementations."

Discussing proposed new intro text:

"The Web has become an application deployment platform for 'desktop' devices. It has been held back from this role on mobile and tablet devices by the rise of proprietary app formats and closed app stores. As a result, much content and many user experiences are being locked into proprietary formats and applications and are not part of the Web. This is clearly a threat to the open Web. What can be done to make the Web the preferred development and deployment?"

Larry: -1

<noah> -0.5

<noah> Noah: I hear agreement to include Robin's text in place of mine, minus the phrase on Flash

<noah> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2012Feb/0012.html

<plinss> I have an additional item for the list. Sending in email to the member list due to bad audio on this call.

Larry: I propose removing "Also, the use of SSL for all SPDY interactions offers the promise of improved privacy on the Web, but also raises architectural questions relating to caching, certificate management, etc. "

<jar> +1

<noah> Jonathan, is that +1 to removing?

<jar> t (yes)

<DKA> +1

<noah> I thought we heard that, while SSL will not be >required<, it will usually be needed in practice to get through existing proxies.

<jar> whether true or false, the privacy comment is controversial, and doesn't add anything significant to the note to Jeff. just flush it

<noah> "Existing deployments of SPDY depend on SSL for tunneling through existing proxies, and therefore raises architectural questions relating to caching, certificate management, etc"

<noah> "Existing deployments of SPDY depend on SSL for tunneling through existing proxies, which raises architectural questions relating to caching, certificate management, etc"

<DKA> could be "e.g. related to caching"

Larry: i'm not sure "depend on" is accurate

<noah> "Existing deployments of SPDY use SSL for tunneling through existing proxies, which raises architectural questions relating to caching, certificate management, etc"

<DKA> +1

<JeniT> +1

<noah> +1

<jar> +1

<noah> Any objections?

<noah> None

<noah> We'll make that change.

<noah> Additional item from Peter: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2012Feb/0025.html

larry: I like the topic, but i don't think it's narrowly applied to CSS as much as it is that the battle for distributed extensibility continues

<noah> Proposed topic: Proliferation of proprietary properties

Larry: Proposed topic: "Distributed extensibility and CSS vendor prefixes at issue"

<noah> Mozilla and Opera are currently making plans to implement support for -webkit- prefixed CSS properties in their respective browsers. They feel they are being driven to this due to the large amount of mobile web content that only provides -webkit- prefixed properties despite the availability of equivalent prefixed properties on Gecko and Presto.

<noah> if browser vendors begin implementing other browser's proprietary properties, the entire standards process is in danger of getting usurped. This also puts the plan to apply vendor prefixes in another areas (such as JavaScript) at risk as the primary purpose for having vendor specific prefixes is being bypassed.

<noah> There is some hope that the CSS working group can make progress in limiting long-term deployment of proprietary extensions that would be better standardized, but prospects for success aren't entirely clear.

Larry: We're still trying to manage 'distributed extensibility', and the method CSS was using is now (also) under threat.

<ht> "We're still trying to manage distributed extensibility, but the mechanism the CSS WG was using is now under threat"

<ht> I really like that sentence of Larry's

<noah> From the top:

<noah> We're still trying to manage distributed extensibility, but the mechanism the CSS WG was using is now under threat"

<noah> Mozilla and Opera are currently making plans to implement support for -webkit- prefixed CSS properties in their respective browsers. They feel they are being driven to this due to the large amount of mobile web content that only provides -webkit- prefixed properties despite the availability of equivalent prefixed properties on Gecko and Presto.

<noah> if browser vendors begin implementing other browser's proprietary properties, the entire standards process is in danger of getting usurped. This also puts the plan to apply vendor prefixes in another areas (such as JavaScript) at risk as the primary purpose for having vendor specific prefixes is being bypassed.

<noah> There is some hope that the CSS working group can make progress in limiting long-term deployment of proprietary extensions that would be better standardized, but prospects for success aren't entriely clear.

<noah> The CSS working group may make progress in limiting long-term deployment of proprietary extensions that would be better standardized, but prospects for success aren't entriely clear.

<noah> Proposed topic: "Distributed extensibility and CSS vendor prefixes at issue"

<noah> at issue?

<noah> Proposed topic: "Distributed extensibility and CSS vendor prefixes"

Larry: +1 ship it

<noah> Should we adopt this as an additional section?

<JeniT> +1

<noah> Agreed without objection.

noah: send this note, on behalf of the TAG to Jeff?

<DKA> Rock it.

<noah> . RESOLUTION: The TAG agrees that Noah should send the note to Jeff on behalf of the TAG

<JeniT> +1

<noah> RESOLUTION: The TAG agrees that Noah should send the note to Jeff on behalf of the TAG

+1

RESOLUTION: The TAG agrees that Noah should send the note to Jeff on behalf of the TAG

<noah> Agreed that Noah will ask Jeff, for this one and in general, what level of distribution he'd prefer.

larry: in general these should all be public since the discussion is public
... i think this is a good precedent

XML Schema namespace document in the XML Schema WG

<noah> ACTION-23?

<trackbot> ACTION-23 -- Henry Thompson to track progress of #int bug 1974 in the XML Schema namespace document in the XML Schema WG -- due 2012-01-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/23

<noah> scribenick: noah

HT: Since day 1, the Schema Rec has said "if you want to identify datatype X", use a URI of the form URI-for-schema-namespace#X. RDF has been doing this.
... It was observed (probably by Noah), that doing this is suspect if there aren't anchors for those URIs
... So far, 'taint there.

<jar> we should do it as RDFa, with rdfs:comment properties

HT: I thought 6 or 7 years ago I knew what to do to fix it. I had a proposed alternative namespace document, in the form of an HTML document, with an anchor for each name.
... Didn't happen for unintersting reasons.
... I recently tried to get focus from the Schema WG. The editor did some work. It was pointed out to me two weeks ago on the TAG call that adding the anchors makes things worse, not better, because it suggests that the URIs refer to elements, not datatypes. A bad thing.
... Didn't get to do all my homework, but would like to ask Jonathan. The TAG has long standing advice that says: you should publish a document at the namespace URI.

I think we encourged RDDL, no?

<scribe> scribenick: noah

HT: Two part question:
... 1) Does the TAG believe that namespace documents should be served with a 200 or a 303

<jar> ht: if the URI identifies a namespace, should its namespace doc be served at that URI with a 200?

HT: 2) If with a 200, should we include directly or indirectly RDFa, to establish triples for the bindings.

JAR: Namespaces seem very similar to RDF graphs. I wouldn't worry about the 200. Probably should use RDFa.

<scribe> scribenick: Larry

jar: I think namespaces are very similar to RDF graphs. We might not need to invent any vocabulary for it, they should just used RDFa.

ht: I expect we need two triples for each URI, one saying "is defined by" [some anchor in the schema spec, and one saying "is a datatype". I know how to say "is defined by", and how to say "is a", but how do I say "datatype"? JAR replies: rdf:type how to say 'is defined by'. jar: rdf:type ?

jar: I'm looking at the model document

jeni: I think it is rdf:datatype

<JeniT> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_datatype

larry: why is this a TAG topic?

<JeniT> rdfs:Datatype

<jar> larry, there were 2 questions. The comparison to rdf graphs was in answer to #1. RDFa was in answer to #2.

noah: the TAG has had opinions for a long time on how to put namespaces on the web

<Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask Jar a clarificaiton, once this discussion dies down

noah: JAR, you started "Namespaces are a lot like RDF graphs". You then said "I wouldn't ... about 200"
... you might need rdf+xml or turtle
... in this case, we're saying return an HTML document with a 200, that the semantics were "this URI refers to a document, the fragments in it within anchors within the document, and by the way, the document may return RDF triples"

jar: your conclusions go way further than the specs warrant

ht: the proposal is not to include anchors in the HTML

jar: I'm saying use RDFa

<jar> not anchors

larry: can they use microdata?

noah: if no one else feels this is broken

ht: please put this back in the 'Due' pile, but the last call on Rec is soon

<noah> ACTION-23?

<trackbot> ACTION-23 -- Henry Thompson to track progress of #int bug 1974 in the XML Schema namespace document in the XML Schema WG -- due 2012-02-14 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/23

<jar> define it using RDFa only for now, not as anchor. later we can figure out whether we agree with Manu Sporny about about= + id=

<noah> Reopening and setting date at Henry's request. Need to be aware of XSD going to Rec.

ht: that was useful, will go back and work on this for next week

web application storage

<noah> Two weeks ago we said: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/01/26-minutes#item04

<noah> ex: if you are creating something locally and it will be exported, what is the linking story there?

<noah> let's continue in two weeks, when Ashok and Robin will be there

noah: With this topic, we don't seem to start off where we left off, this one has been struggling to get started for a while

<jar> jenit, you are right, rdf-mt has rdfs:Datatype as a subclass of rdfs:Class (which is a subtype of rdf:type ??…), so that's the one to use

noah: next topic, Web APplication, should awit for Robin

pending review items

<noah> ACTION-568?

<trackbot> ACTION-568 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft note for Jeff Jaffe listing 5 top TAG priorities as trackable items. -- due 2012-01-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/568

Larry: +1 close Action 568

no objection to closing 568

<noah> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Aug/0030.html

<noah> close ACTION-568

<trackbot> ACTION-568 Draft note for Jeff Jaffe listing 5 top TAG priorities as trackable items. closed

<noah> ACTION-599?

<trackbot> ACTION-599 -- Noah Mendelsohn to close out HTML5 review product -- due 2011-12-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/599

<noah> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tag-announce/2011Dec/0001.html

<noah> close ACTION-599

<trackbot> ACTION-599 Close out HTML5 review product closed

<noah> action-651?

<trackbot> ACTION-651 -- Noah Mendelsohn to announce closing of Web App State Product Due: 2012-01-17 -- due 2012-01-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/651

<noah> ACTION-651?

<trackbot> ACTION-651 -- Noah Mendelsohn to announce closing of Web App State Product Due: 2012-01-17 -- due 2012-01-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/651

<noah> Closing announced in email to www-tag and public-tag-announce on 15 January 2012

<noah> close ACTION-651

<trackbot> ACTION-651 Announce closing of Web App State Product Due: 2012-01-17 closed

<noah> ACTION-663?

<trackbot> ACTION-663 -- Noah Mendelsohn to verify with Harry Halpin the TAG's plan to "keep an eye" on CA issues, and solicit his and TLR's help in keeping us informed Due: 2012-01-31 -- due 2012-01-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/663

<noah> Sent this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Jan/0106.html

<noah> close ACTION-663

<trackbot> ACTION-663 Verify with Harry Halpin the TAG's plan to "keep an eye" on CA issues, and solicit his and TLR's help in keeping us informed Due: 2012-01-31 closed

jar: I plan to put out a draft on UDDP over the weekend

ashok: fine

noah: if you want something you want discussed and on the agenda, please let noah know

Overdue actions

<noah> ACTION-632?

<trackbot> ACTION-632 -- Ashok Malhotra to frame issues around client-side storage work -- due 2012-02-07 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/632

<noah> ACTION-632 Due 2012-02-14

<trackbot> ACTION-632 Frame issues around client-side storage work due date now 2012-02-14

<noah> ACTION-647?

<trackbot> ACTION-647 -- Ashok Malhotra to draft product page on client-side storage focusing on specific goals and success criteria Due: 2012-01-17 -- due 2012-02-07 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/647

<noah> close ACTION-632

<trackbot> ACTION-632 Frame issues around client-side storage work closed

<noah> ACTION-647 Due 2012-02-14

<trackbot> ACTION-647 Draft product page on client-side storage focusing on specific goals and success criteria Due: 2012-01-17 due date now 2012-02-14

<noah> ACTION-611?

<trackbot> ACTION-611 -- Larry Masinter to draft initial cut at http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/protocols -- due 2011-12-29 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/611

<noah> NM: Propose we adjourn. We can discuss in e-mail either reinvesting in helping W3C with architecture pages and/or improving the presence of the TAG on the Web

<jar> +1

<noah> NM: We are adjourned. Thank you.

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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