See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 17 June 2010
<scribe> meeting: TAG
<scribe> scribenick: Ashok
<scribe> scribe: Ashok Malhotra
Noah: I will be available next week but not the following 2 weeks. So, I want to cancel the mtgs for July 1 and July 8
... I will send mail re. summer calls
... HT can you scribe next week?
ht: Yes, subject to usual constraints
<noah> Henry will scribe next week
Noah: Larry, we are still waiting for minutes from May 27, correct?
Noah: f2f minutes need to be approved. Let's do it next week.
<jar> Still looking at f2f minutes
Noah: I'm working with Raman on hosting October mtg
<noah> NM: Summarizes Raman's concerns about F2F scheduling
<noah> HT: Endorses sense of Noah's reply... F2F meetings are useful, this one is good
Larry: I updated the note a bit.
... The docs we reference are a bit incomplete
... I got a positive review from Ned Freed and Graham Klyne.
<noah> HT: The one we reviewed at the F2F was the blog post (http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/06/mime-and-web.html)
Larry: more to be said on registering MIME types
... affects a lot of issues
... version indicators, sniffing and whether metadata is authoritative
... language of this doc does not talk about licences or authority
... need a clearer statement of what MIME means and how to use it on the Web
... 2 opportunities
... 1) work with Ned and Graham to update MIME doc and MIME registration procedures
... would be really helpful
... 2) proposal for new IETF WG -- HTTP Application Security to be discussed in mtg late July
<Yves> I gave a pointer to the HASMAT BOF at next IETF during the f2f
Noah: Thank you, Larry ... very helpful
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to mention override
HT: Very valuable... uptake from IETF very encouraging
... need to add section on overriding media-types
<timbl__> VXML? HTML5?
<jar> Link: header has 'type' feature relating to Content-type... but it means "you might expect to get something of this type" I think (should check)
<jar> so maybe not a problem
HT: regardless of response you get use this media-type or if there is no media-type specified use this media-type
<ht> XInclude, xml-stylesheet PI, XProc
<noah> From RFC 2616:
<noah> If and only if the media type is not given by a Content-Type field, the recipient MAY attempt to guess the media type via inspection of its content and/or the name extension(s) of the URI used to identify the resource.
Larry: There were some concrete suggestions for spec to be updated at the end of the BOF
Larry: If you have out-of-band info about media-type you shd use that in an Accept Header
Noah: Would you update 2616 ?
<ht> Guys, remember that HTTP-bis is underway and it _is_ updating 2616
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to explain the XInclude example
HT: I will explain the XInclude case and I hope you will agree it does the right thing
<jar> ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-10 sec. 5.4 "this is only a hint" )
HT: I'm ignoring media type and doing something different because that's what the includer wants
Tim: When you break the level of abstraction you are on dangerous ground and user shd be warned
Larry: If you say it says it's XML but I will treat as plain text
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to say I hear Tim agreeing with me that doing this has to be called out for special discussion
ht: I agree with Tim ... a new doc about media-types shd say something about this kind of behaviour and it shd say what Tim said ... be careful when breaking levels of abstraction
... The efficient XML encoding is not an encoding ... tells you how to build an infoset but not a content encoding
<Yves> that's why EXI can't be used as a Transfer-Encoding (and it is marked that way in the IANA registry)
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to say: I think Larry's example exposes why we treated doing EXI as a content-encoding
Larry: You also want to think abt overriding the character encoding
<Zakim> timbl__, you wanted to talk about breaking levels for example accessing the character sequence
Noah: It would be very different for XInclude to say: ignore the content type, use this as opposed to check if media type is within this bounde range and then play the level-breaking tricks
<noah> Noah: specifically, the XML media type says that what you get >is< characters, so treating your information as such isn't ignoring the media type
Tim: Gives examples of level-breaking
Noah: Let's talk abt how to cooperate with IETF
Larry: My time is limited... can someone else do this?
Noah: If we pick this back up in Sept will we have lost an opportunity?
<noah> Maastricht is late July?
Larry: Would be good to weigh in on HASMAT
<noah> YL: Likely scope of HASMAT work is much broader than media types & sniffing. I will be there and can convey messages.
Larry: Please make suggestion
YL: I don't see a lot of interest in IETF to work on the specs ... I think it's very important
Noah: Shd Yves take an action to gather a TAG position on how to handle this and then represent us in Maastricht?
... Larry can you work on this the next week?
<noah> . ACTION Yves to coordinate TAG positions on media type related work with IETF, and to represent TAG at IETF meetings in Mastricht
<noah> ACTION Yves to coordinate TAG positions on media type related work with IETF, and to represent TAG at IETF meetings in Mastricht Due: 2010-07-20
<trackbot> Created ACTION-447 - Coordinate TAG positions on media type related work with IETF, and to represent TAG at IETF meetings in Mastricht Due: 2010-07-20 [on Yves Lafon - due 2010-06-24].
<noah> ACTION-447 Due 2010-07-20
<trackbot> ACTION-447 Coordinate TAG positions on media type related work with IETF, and to represent TAG at IETF meetings in Mastricht Due: 2010-07-20 due date now 2010-07-20
<noah> From 9 June 2010 F2F discussion: RESOLUTION: HST to send the contents of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Jun/0014.html to ietf-http-wg, cced to public-html and www-tag, with minor fixes given above
Noah: Originates from Action-387
<noah> Response from Mark Nottingham: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0097.html
<noah> HT: I still prefer what Yves wrote, but they've responded, and we should thank them and move on.
HT: ... we got some of what we wanted
<noah> From the response from Mark:
<noah> In practice, currently-deployed servers sometime provide a Content-Type header which does not correctly convey the intended interpretation of the content sent, with the result that some clients will examine the response body's content and override the specified type.
Yves: The new text was more in line with ... explains motivation for changes ... security breaches
Noah: I have trouble with -- with the result that some clients will examine the response body's content and override the specified type.
... perhaps this is minor
HT: Not worth bothering with this
Noah: Henry can you send thanks?
<noah> close ACTION-387
<trackbot> ACTION-387 Review JK/NM's stuff on sniffing, authoritative metadata, self-describing web, incl. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0025.html closed
Noah: Do you want to discuss this? Next step in announcing IRI everywhere
Larry: Some movement in IETF in unifying IRI
... I cannot separate the politics from the technical substance
<noah> I want to be sure we're getting the technical details of what Larry is saying...do we need to pause for the scribe?
<masinter> there are several technical issues that need to be worked somewhere
larry: Several technical issues
<masinter> the most important is around IDNA and domain names
<masinter> because IDNA doesn't use hex-encoded UTF8 but rahter punicode
<masinter> Internationalization of Domain Names for Applications
<masinter> second around BIDI
Noah: What shd be TAG's role?
... Shall we close the action?
<masinter> suggest closing this action, leaving issue open
<jar> Larry's plan for closing the issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Mar/0037.html
Noah: I will not schedule discussion unless someone asks?
<ht> close ACTION-370
<trackbot> ACTION-370 HST to send a revised-as-amended version of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0068.html to the HTTP bis list on behalf of the TAG closed
Raman: Has anyone else read the msg from Adam Barth?
... it's a question of layering of specs
... URI spec tells you how a URI is written and interpreted
... if you think abt which spec goes first
... how the byte stream is interpreted
<masinter> hard to separate logistics issues from technical issues, but the technical issues need to be worked, independently of where. IDNA, BIDI presentation, and several others.
Noah: Closing the action is consistent with your advice
Raman: I suggest the TAG read Adam Barth's note and then we can discuss
<noah> Adam Barth's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html
Noah: I will not schedule discussion unless someone asks
<masinter> Adam's message focuses on the logistical approach, but I'm afraid that the layering isn't actually appropriate, doesn't match how anyone implements IRIs today
HT: Pl. read Adam's msg and let's discuss next week
<noah> . ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html on 24 June
<noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html on 24 June [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/17-minutes#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-448 - Schedule discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html on 24 June [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-06-24].
<noah> close ACTION-411
<trackbot> ACTION-411 Take the next step on announcing IRIEverywhere closed
Raman: I will send confirmation of f2f to list
Noah: I would like to close ACTION 403
<noah> I think Dan's note http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0038.html resolves it.
<noah> close ACTION-403
<trackbot> ACTION-403 Ensure that TAG responds to Murata Makoto's request for RelaxNG Schemas for XHTML (self-assigned) closed
<trackbot> ACTION-425 -- Larry Masinter to draft updated MIME finding(s), with help from DanA, based on www-tag discussion -- due 2010-05-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
Noah: Larry shd we close 425?
<noah> close ACTION-425
<trackbot> ACTION-425 Draft updated MIME finding(s), with help from DanA, based on www-tag discussion closed
<masinter> the MIME update should cover more about fragment identifiers
<noah> Noah has permission to close 441 after sending note.
Noah: Sent note re. frag-id. Got supportive reply from Jonathan. If I don't hear I will send note in a couple of days.
<Yves> I agree with Larry that mime reg form is missing fragment handling
<trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types? -- pending review
Larry: Wondering if MIME-type stuff shd be opened as an issue
<trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- Why does the Web use mime types and not URIs? -- closed
<trackbot> ISSUE-3 -- Relationship between media types and namespaces? -- closed
<noah> w3cMediaType-1 : Should W3C WGs define their own media types?
Noah: We have a couple of closed issues that are related ... see above
<trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types? -- pending review
Noah: Larry do you still think we need a new issue?
jar: Looks like a new issue to me
<jar> . OK, but *how* should W3C WGs define their own media types?
Noah: Text for new issue?
<noah> Mime & Web?
Larry: MIME and Web
Noah: Actually, MIME-types?
<noah> Use of MIME with the Web?
<noah> for the Web?
<noah> ISSUE: The role of MIME in the Web Architecture
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-66 - The role of MIME in the Web Architecture ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66/edit .
<noah> Shortname: mimeAndWeb-55
<noah> Make sure use of MIME capabilities, typing, etc. in Web architecture is appropriate, and coordinate with IETF.
<trackbot> ISSUE-66 -- The role of MIME in the Web Architecture -- open
Noah: We will have a call next week
... and after that not for two weeks