See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribe: Ashok
<scribe> scribenick: Ashok
<noah> Lurking for awhile. No phone, will probable not be on IRC long. Please mark me "regrets", as previously noted. Thank you.
HT: Noah traveling
... Next mtg Dec 3. Noah will Chair, Larry is up for scribing.
Ashok: Regrets for Dec 3
HT: Can we have a mtg with only 4 people, Jonathan asks
<ht> Noah, proxy for admin tasks, please
<ht> So we can do them
<Zakim> jar, you wanted to ask what is quorum
<jar> DC: Not cited by HTML 5, disputed.
<jar> HT: Works for me.
JR: 2 lines in minutes of Nov 12 that I did not understand. Need to understand the subject
<jar> what are the subjects of these two sentence fragments?
<noah> Sorry, just noticed. Henry, you have my proxy for admin.
<jar> Appendix C of html 1.0 is not cited by html5
<jar> ht meant: if html5 would take on updated Appendix C, that would be a good goal
HT: If HTML WG would take on updating App C and make it as good as possible that would be great!
<DanC> +1 approve minutes of 2 Nov
HT: Can we agree to approve minutes of Nov 2
No objection. Minutes approved.
HT: Can we agree to approve minutes of Nov 6
No objection. Minutes of Nov 6 approved.
HT: Can we agree to approve minutes of Nov 12
<DanC> (minutes 6 nov are missing a back-pointer to the agenda; I almost fixed that before this meeting, but didn't get a round to it.)
No objection. Minutes of Nov 12 approved.
<jar> Nov 6 "removal of the Microdata section form HTML4" - that means HTML5, right?
<noah> Usually, when minutes are approved, I quietly make a note to myself to remove the DRAFT indication. In this case, I'll be gone 1.5 more weeks. Please either just do it, or if you prefer, assign me trivial actions.
scribe: no change required
<DanC> close ACTION-310
<trackbot> ACTION-310 Check with Sam Ruby on ECMA/W3C activities at TPAC closed
HT: We have 2 f2f meetings scheduled: Dec 8-10 and March 17-19
<DanC> close ACTION-296
<trackbot> ACTION-296 update ISSUE-62 and ISSUE-63 to reference each other closed
<DanC> for indexing purposes:
<trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- Composability for user interface-oriented XML namespaces -- OPEN
HT: Dan action on you to check HTML plans for SVG and MathML
HT: They just grandfathered the entire spec
... what abt overlaps
DC: You have to use SVG element, so no ambiguity
HT: What abt HTML within SVG?
DC: Have not seen a design for that
HT: What is said about namespace declarations? Allowed and ignored?
<noah> Hmm, why do I think I asked someone about HTML and SVG and got some answer like: some user agents may support that. This is NOT reliable information, just a vague recollection.
DC: Don't know
HT: I will look into this
... There has been discussion abt XML namespaces in HTML mixed in with draconian XML error recovery
HT: above is Liam's proposal
... extensibility has heated up again.
<DanC> (could we stick with the MathML/SVG stuff for a bit, mr chair? i.e. the user interface aspects, not the namespace syntax bits.)
HT: I have written up the media type defaulting story which we have talked abt for 2 years
HT: I don't think Liam's proposal has a chance whereas mine has a chance.
... I'm concerened abt tactics rather than substance
DC: Reminds that we have an issue with user interface
... mixed namespace user interface documents
... CDF WG is gone!
DC: They are not active.
... HTML5 folks have a design on the table.
HT: Does proposal say much abt semantics
DC: Talks mainly abt parsing
HT: Does not sound good
DC: I pointed this out when I was chair
<DanC> Noah, I don't see "not reliable" in your msg
DC: I have made my peace with the proposal. Noah said he had not made peace with it but did not suggest what to do with it
<DanC> "I still am among those who
<ht> The semantics of SVG elements are defined by the SVG specification and other relevant specifications. [SVG]
DC: OK, That's good
<DanC> but nothing about event-bubbling and screen arbitration between HTML and SVG
<ht> "When the SVG foreignObject element contains elements from the HTML namespace, such elements"
DC: how does it get in the HTML namespace. This is not a complete proposal.
... There is some algorithm for parsing the whole thing and some elements end up in the HTML namespace
HT: Lot of special casing
DC: No attempt to do anything general
HT: How do we make progress here?
<DanC> I don't think "there's no architectural issue here"; I think there's an architectural issue here, but legacy constrains the solution space, and I'm OK with accepting these constraints, since, interestingly, the right namespaces do end up in the DOM
HT: asks JR
JR: I would have to look thru the doc and do text searches
HT: What would you need to know?
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note Noah's reply re SVG and MathML and to note that the "incorporated wholesale" is the way the (UI) software is, to date, developed too; no other designs
HT: Asks abt integration of HTML with SVG and MathML
DanC: Incorpparte wholesale is what people do
JR: It's setting up a separate social and technical process for extensibility outside of web arch
... we are not talking about a general-purpose design here
HT: Don't see a way to get a conclusion to this part of the discussion.
DanC: Noah and Tim are not here ... leave my action as "Pending Review"
HT: HTML issue 4 has been open for 2 years
... in Feb Larry took an action and made a proposal
<DanC> last call for proposals of 26 Oct, due 3 Dec: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/0941.html
DanC: There is a proposal in the spec ... no version identifiers
<noah> Am I remembering right that the TAG decided not to actively pursue Larry's proposal? Of course, we could pick it up now, or I may be misremembering.
<DanC> I think we didn't decide. (different from deciding not)
<ht> <!DOCTYPE HTML SYSTEM "about:legacy-compat">
<ht> Larry made an explicit proposal?
<DanC> yeah... did larry make a proposal re. HTML version identifiers?
JR: I have not been able to convince myself that what they are doing is wrong
... I want to check
<noah> Don't want to push this hard, but I thought we decided not to schedule further discussion for the (then) forseeable future. I have no problem picking it up again if there's new info or if TAG members are now interested.
<noah> Would have to check past minutes, and am not in a position to do that from here.
<ht> I put this on the agenda because TV and Larry had relevant actions due for today
<ht> Unfortunately, neither of them are here, so we have to give up. . .
<DanC> (the actions are due today as a matter of chair's perogative to edit the tracker; they were do a while ago, when the action owners last touched them.)
HT: With some regrets ... some support for version identifiers ... but we need a proposal
DanC: Manu's proposal included a version attribute
HT: I thought that was still open for discussion
DC: I think it was published
HT: It is issue 76?
<DanC> I don't see @version in there.
<DanC> I saw (discussion of?) some earlier draft with html/@version
<jar> HTML+RDFa "There should be a version attribute on the html element."
<jar> URI for issue 76 please?
DanC: Mike Smith tells me Manu moved the version att somewhere else
HT: I don't hear anyone stepping up to make a proposal.
... not happy abt this
... we we probably raise it again when they want to go to CR
<noah> Dropping off for awhile again...sorry. If I'm really in the critical path for anything, please have someone call or SMS my cell next 30 mins. Thanks, and thanks to HT for chairing!
<trackbot> ACTION-336 -- Ashok Malhotra to prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f -- due 2009-11-19 -- OPEN
<trackbot> ACTION-282 -- Jonathan Rees to draft a finding on metadata architecture. -- due 2009-12-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot> ACTION-278 -- Jonathan Rees to draft changes to 2.7 of Metadata in URIs to cover the "Google Calendar" case -- due 2009-10-15 -- OPEN
<DanC> action-278 due 10 Dec
<trackbot> ACTION-278 Draft changes to 2.7 of Metadata in URIs to cover the "Google Calendar" case due date now 10 Dec
<trackbot> ACTION-337 -- Larry Masinter to frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata formats/representations -- due 2009-11-19 -- OPEN
<DanC> close action-299
<trackbot> ACTION-299 Notify the TAG when the HTML WG gets closer to closing issue-4 html-versioning closed
<DanC> action-283 due 10 Dec
<trackbot> ACTION-283 Update document on version identifiers w.r.t. Cambridge June discussion due date now 10 Dec
<DanC> action-318 due 20 Nov
<trackbot> ACTION-318 Send note to Device APIs and Policy (DAP) Working Group on behalf of the TAG due date now 20 Nov
<DanC> action-282: see Ashok's 13 Nov msg http://www.w3.org/mid/4AFD629C.firstname.lastname@example.org
<trackbot> ACTION-282 Draft a finding on metadata architecture. notes added
<DanC> action-336 due 13 Nov
<trackbot> ACTION-336 Prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f due date now 13 Nov
<DanC> action-116 due 10 Dec
<trackbot> ACTION-116 Align the tabulator internal vocabulary with the vocabulary in the rules http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules, getting changes to either as needed. due date now 10 Dec
<DanC> ACTION-281: let's take a look at this when we have jar's draft (action-282)
<trackbot> ACTION-281 Keep an eye on progress of link header draft, report to TAG, warn us of problems (ISSUE-62) notes added
<DanC> action-281 due 1 Dec
<trackbot> ACTION-281 Keep an eye on progress of link header draft, report to TAG, warn us of problems (ISSUE-62) due date now 1 Dec
<DanC> action-337 due 20 Nov
<trackbot> ACTION-337 frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata formats/representations due date now 20 Nov
<DanC> ACTION-306 due 20 Nov
<trackbot> ACTION-306 Work with Raman, LM, JK to update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG meetings due date now 20 Nov
<DanC> ACTION-337 due 24 Nov
<trackbot> ACTION-337 frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata formats/representations due date now 24 Nov
<DanC> action-330 get somebody to talk about metadata usage e.g. RDFa?
<DanC> action-330: get somebody to talk about metadata usage e.g. RDFa?
<trackbot> ACTION-330 Prepare Dec f2f agenda in collaboration with Noah etc. notes added
<DanC> ACTION-304: kinda withdrawn in favor of HT's action
<trackbot> ACTION-304 Write up issue around normative references to particular versions of specs notes added
<DanC> close ACTION-231
<trackbot> ACTION-231 Draft replacement for \"how to use conneg\" stuff in HTTP spec closed
<DanC> action-334 due next week
<trackbot> ACTION-334 Start an email thread regarding the treatment of pre-HTML5 versions in the media type registration text of HTML5 due date now next week
<DanC> action-309 due next week
<trackbot> ACTION-309 Henry to bring back proposed TAG pushback on sniffing and HTTP bis draft http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/export/663/draft-ietf-httpbis/latest/p3-payload.html, or his recommendation that we leave it alone due date now next week
<DanC> ACTION-163: I agree with ht's proposal in the 19 Nov agenda that he take this on
<trackbot> ACTION-163 Coordinate with Ted to build a sample catalog notes added
<DanC> ACTION-163: I=Dan that is
<trackbot> ACTION-163 Coordinate with Ted to build a sample catalog notes added