W3C | TAG | Previous teleconference: 11th Sept  | Next teleconference: 2nd October 2008.

TAG face-to-face meeting, 23rd-25th September 2008
Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, Kansas City, Missouri.

9 TAG members in front of the Kauffman foundation conference center

Ashok, Stuart, Norm-by-phone, Noah, Dave, Henry, Tim, Dan, Jonathan, Raman (with Hubbell)

Nearby: TAG Issues Tracker - findings - www-tag archive - tag archive

Meeting at a glance

Tue 23rd Sep Agenda Minutes
09:00-10:30 Convene
  1. Convene, review agenda
  2. FTF meeting schedule
  3. TAG at TPAC 2008
  4. URNsAndRegistries-50
  5. binaryXML-30
  6. HTML and Web: the Big Picture
  7. HTML5 should be modularized?
  8. URI Parsing in HTML5
11:00-12:30 HTML and Web: the Big Picture
12:30-13:30 Lunch
13:30-15:00 Modularized HTML5?
15:30-17:00 URI parsing in HTML5
Wed 24th Sep   Minutes
09:00-10:30 Self Describing Web
  1. 3.5 Self Describing Web
  2. 3.4.4 HTTP And HTML
  3. HTML5: Embedding And Embedability
  4. Uniform access to metadata
11:15-12:30 HTTP and HTML
12:30-13:30 Lunch
13:30-15:00 HTML5 Embedding and Embedability
15:30-17:00 tagSoupIntegration-54: How to move Forward
Thur 25th Sep   Minutes
09:00-10:30 passwordsInTheClear-52
  1. issue passwordsInTheClear-52
  2. XMLVersioning-41
  3. Thanks to the host
  4. XMLVersioning-41 (cont)
  5. wrap up on HTML
  6. binaryXML
  7. Postscript: versioning formalism
11:00-12:30 XMLVersioning-41
12:30-13:30 Lunch
13:30-15:00 XMLVersioning-41 (cont)
15:30-16:00 Wrapup/AOB



(also separate Logistics page)

2. Preparation

Participants are expected to read materials in the Preparation sections under each item below in advance of the meeting.

TAG members are presumed to be familiar with the TAG Charter.

3. Agenda

3.1 Convene

3.2 URNsAndRegistries-50

Our goals for this session are: to review progress and direction of our work on UrnsAndRegististres-50; to review the progress of the dialog between the TAG and the OASIS XRI TC.

Background for reference


3.3 binaryXML-30

Our goals for this session is to checks the status of TAG interaction with the EXI-WG; review our progress in reviewing their publications; and discuss a LC review request from the WG.

3.4 tagSoupIntegration-54 - HTML and The Web

We are planning to spend a total of 1.5 days on this topic, i.e. half the F2F. The F2F is being organized as 4 90 minute sessions a day, so I'm assuming we get 6 sessions. I'll assign a core issue to each of 4 90 minute sessions, leave the first session for a high-level overview of issues with respect to how design decisions in HTML affect the rest of the Web stack, and leave the final 90 minute session for defining global action items for the TAG. My expectation is that each of the topic-focused 90 minute sessions end with their own action items.
T.V. Raman

Note tag-internal discussion of meeting goals Re: updated Agenda 13 Aug and following.

3.4.1 HTML And Web The Big Picture

When the world-view was
 HTML will move to XML
the question of how other Web technologies integrated with HTML was usually answered by saying
 XML will bring it all together.

However, that is no longer the case, there is now little or no hope of the HTML5 world converging with the XML family of languages. HTML5 has an XML serialization that is a second-class citizen at best as far as that community is concerned. In the above I said HTML and Web technologies — but that is just my perspective. The HTML5 community would define themselves as encompassing all Web technologies, i.e., if it's not HTML5 and implemented in a browser, it's not the Web. Personally that is a view that I do not subscribe to, but it's important for the TAG to have thought about where we stand globally on this before we get to concrete details, since one's technical stand on any of the issues that arise is deeply affected by the above.

If you take the world-view that the Web is more than a Web Browser, and that Web technology means more than just HTML, then the core issue that underlies each specific technical issue is the following:

 How do you make sure that  XML technologies can co-exist on the Web alongside HTML
without necessarily having  HTML's sloppiness leaking  into all Web languages?


3.4.2 Issue: HTML5 Should Be Modularized?

  • Modular specs make for easier review, and make addressing issues tractable. At present, each issue that is raised loops back to something else, and worse, the spec is not getting the architectural review it deserves.
  • The spec is being cherry-picked by implementations with everyone claiming they're implementing it. But they are all implementing different parts of it.
  • Propose a reasonable breakdown based on prior experience.
    • Parsing
    • DOM
    • Serialization (canonical serialization) XML and HTML.
    • Semantics of related groups of elements.
    • Interaction with CSS
    • Interaction with other Web languages –both embedding and being embeded.


3.4.3 URL Parsing In HTML5

As the underlying authoring language for the Web, HTML by definition has to be able to utter phrases in all of the Web's basic technologies, e.g. URLs. Traditionally, building blocks like URLs have been specified outside of HTML, since they need to be used in more than just HTML. This has also left the question of error recovery underspecified. At present, HTML5 is attempting to rectify such under-specified error recovery by trying to write down all of the rules for moving from a sequence of bytes to a URL. This necessarily introduces aspects of the overall HTML5 parsing, and might over time lead to HTML5 error behavior bleeding into the rest of the Web that is more than just browsers.



3.4.4 HTTP And HTML

The Web has been built on (HTTP, URL, HTML). HTML5 impinges on many parts of the HTTP specification and its use. The _ping_ attribute generated much heat and little light before the FF3 launch, and that issue has moved to the back-burner, mostly because FF3 decided to postpone implementing it. But this is not a resolved issue, and HTML5 has many places where it impinges on HTTP. This is of concern wherever those points of intersection are being designed purely from the perspective of the browser. I believe there should be more coordination with the work on updating HTTP that is presently ongoing in the IETF. At present (and this is but a rough sketch) the browser vendors appear to be doing HTML5, everyone else is doing HTTP.

Another core issue that lies at the intersection of HTTP and HTML is the issue of:

Content-Type Sniffing

For reference, that's ISSUE-28 http-mime-override in the HTML WG tracker.


3.4.5 HTML5: Embedding And Embedability

The issue of distributed extensibility and namespaces has been beaten to death. I don't believe anyone in either camp can really be made to change their minds at this point with regard to XML namespaces. The latest proposal from the HTML5 editor to enable extensibility is to stick whatever globally unique identifier one wants in the class attribute. This brings us back to something I observed in 2001
Given CSS and JavaScript, HTML can be reduced to _div_ and _span_.
I later revised this to:
 display:inline allows you reduce this to just one element --- _div_  

Distributed extensibility ends up reducing to a power-struggle between browser vendors who want to dictate what the vocabulary of the Web is — and content creators who do not want to cede this right entirely to the browser. I believe this power struggle to be the root cause of all of the tension that can be observed whenever this issue is brought up.

At this point, I believe we should let the marketplace decide --- it will anyway, with or without the TAG.

But there is a more fundamental design issue that needs to be addressed in this context with respect to the top-level co-existence question we asked in our first session:

Embedding And Embeddability 
  1. Given an XML-based language e.g., ATOM, how does one embed HTML content fragments without the HTML5 slopping out into the XML? At present, the only answer is to make the HTML payload a CData section, but in that case, you might as well use something equally opaque like PostScript or PDF.
  2. How does one host/embed other languages inside HTML5 e.g., MathML, SVG, or other vocabularies?


3.4.6 tagSoupIntegration-54 How To Move Forward

This session is for the TAG as a whole to decide how and if we want to move forward with the overall issue of TAG Soup integration.

3.5 Self Describing Web

Our goal for this session is to reach agreement to publish the TAG Finding titled: The Self-Describing Web. Norm Walsh and Stuart Williams took an action in Bristol to do reviews, and the results of those reviews were generally supportive of publication (Norm's review, Stuart's original review and Stuart's followups here, here, and here).

The principle question that's still known to be a point of debate is whether the normative specifications do or do not suport the claim that RDFa embedded in an application/xhtml+xml document retrieved via HTTP is self-describing, in the sense that the server can be held responsible for triples inferred from the RDFa. See email from Noah, as well messages linked from that email, and others in the same threads.



3.6 passwordsInTheClear-52 (ISSUE-52)

Our goal for this session is to review the most recent draft of the related draft finding and the message that we want it to convey.



3.7 XMLVersioning-41 (ISSUE-41)

Our goals for this session are: to further expand the body of text in the Compatibility Strategies draft finding supported by the TAG; to consider whether the finding needs to include any particular formalism either by inclusion or by reference.


Stuart Williams for the TAG,
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