- From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
- Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:33:53 +0100
- To: Timothy Lebo <lebot@rpi.edu>
- CC: Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>, "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <EMEW3|ef5826774a57abab8bfe38eddd1a9107o55DXv08L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|4FCF4E31>
Sorry, guys, please give me a definition/text/examples for this, I have been trying for six months ... I thought we wanted to keep a subtype of derivation, Tim, but you seem also to introduce a type of entity. I find this is becoming too heavy. Luc On 06/06/2012 01:26 PM, Timothy Lebo wrote: > Luc, > > Regarding the name, > Yes, I think we agreed on hadPrimarySource. > > > > Though, looking at the definition at > http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#term-primary-source > : > > A primary source refers to the source material that is closest to > the person, information, period, or idea being studied. > > 1) A primary source relation is a particular case of derivation > <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#concept-derivation> > that aims to give credit to the source that originated some > information. It is recognized that it may be hard to determine which > entity constitutes a primary source. This definition is inspired by > original-source as defined in > http://googlenewsblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/credit-where-credit-is-due.html. > > does not lead me think of what is described at > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source > > 2) A primary source (also called *original source* or *evidence*) is > an artifact, a document, a recording, or other source of information > that was created at the time under study. > > > > #1 still gives me this loose bloggy feel, and not the curation feel > that I think is important for Primary Sources. > > While #2 claims "it's hard to determine", I disagree, #1 is clear that > it must have been "created at the time under study". > > I suggesting making #2 the definition, and attenuating the emphasis on > http://googlenewsblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/credit-where-credit-is-due.html (by > perhaps stating that "in the blogosphere, Primary source is a concern > as discussed by googlenewsblog) > > -Tim > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 7:43 AM, Paul Groth wrote: > >> Yes. It remains as such. >> >> Thanks >> Paul >> >> On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk >> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> wrote: >>> hasPrimarySource or hadPrimarySource? >>> >>> Is the definition remaining unchanged beyond s/original/primary/ ? >>> >>> Luc >>> >>> On 06/06/2012 12:25 PM, Paul Groth wrote: >>>> I believe that the consensus is to rename it to PrimarySource. >>>> >>>> hasPrimarySource >>>> >>>> Is that correct, Jim, Tim. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Luc >>>> Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Paul, Tim, Jim, all, >>>>> >>>>> What's the consensus on this? What definition and name do you want to >>>>> adopt for this >>>>> relation? >>>>> >>>>> Luc >>>>> >>>>> On 06/05/2012 08:35 PM, Paul Groth wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Jim McCusker<mccusj@rpi.edu >>>>>> <mailto:mccusj@rpi.edu>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hadPrimarySource is much clearer. Anyone who has paid attention >>>>>>> in history >>>>>>> class (at least in the US) should be familiar with the idea of >>>>>>> primary >>>>>>> sources, so I think it's probably the most useful term. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Paul Groth<p.t.groth@vu.nl >>>>>>> <mailto:p.t.groth@vu.nl>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi TIm, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think i'm bending your way. If other's think primary source >>>>>>>> is more >>>>>>>> intelligible then I'm happy to change this. >>>>>>>> I think Luc also finally "got' this relation when I pointed him >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> wiki page so maybe that says something as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cheers >>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Timothy Lebo<lebot@rpi.edu >>>>>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 9:06 AM, Paul Groth wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is the same intent as the google definition of original >>>>>>>>>> source in >>>>>>>>>> my reading of their post. I would consider primary source >>>>>>>>>> but think >>>>>>>>>> original source has some history of usage on the web already. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Where on the web is "original source" used? >>>>>>>>> Blogging? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anywhere else? >>>>>>>>> I'm not a blogger, and I haven't seen "original source". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> cheers >>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Timothy Lebo<lebot@rpi.edu >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 8:48 AM, Paul Groth wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, orginalsource had the meaning >>>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Oh, did we shift from the meaning taken from that Google >>>>>>>>>>> Blog about >>>>>>>>>>> journalism ? >>>>>>>>>>> (which, I can't find in any public draft, so I guess "yes"…) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I like the description at >>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source >>>>>>>>>>> __much__ better, >>>>>>>>>>> I had no idea that that was the intent of hadOriginalSource. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Since wikipedia choose the name "primary", perhaps we should >>>>>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>>>>> I would be in favor of renaming: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hadOriginalSource -> hadPrimarySource >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Now that I understand the concept, I'd rather this than the >>>>>>>>>>> "originatedFrom", which is drastically different. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To me a "big change" now is changing stuff that has been in >>>>>>>>>>>> the spec >>>>>>>>>>>> in a number of drafts. I won't really argue hard but I want >>>>>>>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>>>>>> convinced that this is worth it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That's reasonable. But perhaps it indicates that the bigger >>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>> are out of the way now :-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -Tim >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Timothy Lebo<lebot@rpi.edu >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 2:54 AM, Paul Groth wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think hadOriginalSource and originatedFrom convey >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that they are pretty close in meaning, and one >>>>>>>>>>>>> follows the >>>>>>>>>>>>> naming style more appropriately. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also a bit concerned about doing these big renames of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> things. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you measure "big"? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -Tim >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cheers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:58 AM, Provenance Working Group >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Issue >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracker >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <sysbot+tracker@w3.org <mailto:sysbot+tracker@w3.org>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-395: Rename hadOriginalSource to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "originatedFrom"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [prov-dm] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/395 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raised by: Timothy Lebo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On product: prov-dm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DM editors, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could hadOriginalSource be renamed to "originatedFrom" ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it follows the "wasDerivedFrom" naming a little more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely, and avoids an exception to PROV-O's "has" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> naming convention. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then, perhaps the Involvement "Source" could be renamed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Origin"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And qualifiedSource would become qualifiedOrigin. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that this naming is a little more natural. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (yes, this is phrased in terms of PROV-O, but an issue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on DM; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably best product would be mapping prov-dm<-> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prov-o...) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl <mailto:p.t.groth@vu.nl>) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.few.vu.nl/%7Epgroth/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Knowledge Representation& Reasoning Group >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Artificial Intelligence Section >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Department of Computer Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>> VU University Amsterdam >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl <mailto:p.t.groth@vu.nl>) >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/ <http://www.few.vu.nl/%7Epgroth/> >>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>>>>>> Knowledge Representation& Reasoning Group >>>>>>>>>>>> Artificial Intelligence Section >>>>>>>>>>>> Department of Computer Science >>>>>>>>>>>> VU University Amsterdam >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl <mailto:p.t.groth@vu.nl>) >>>>>>>>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/ <http://www.few.vu.nl/%7Epgroth/> >>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>>>> Knowledge Representation& Reasoning Group >>>>>>>>>> Artificial Intelligence Section >>>>>>>>>> Department of Computer Science >>>>>>>>>> VU University Amsterdam >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl <mailto:p.t.groth@vu.nl>) >>>>>>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/ <http://www.few.vu.nl/%7Epgroth/> >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>> Knowledge Representation& Reasoning Group >>>>>>>> Artificial Intelligence Section >>>>>>>> Department of Computer Science >>>>>>>> VU University Amsterdam >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Jim McCusker >>>>>>> Programmer Analyst >>>>>>> Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics >>>>>>> Yale School of Medicine >>>>>>> james.mccusker@yale.edu <mailto:james.mccusker@yale.edu> | (203) >>>>>>> 785-6330 >>>>>>> http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PhD Student >>>>>>> Tetherless World Constellation >>>>>>> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute >>>>>>> mccusj@cs.rpi.edu <mailto:mccusj@cs.rpi.edu> >>>>>>> http://tw.rpi.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Professor Luc Moreau >>>>> Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487 >>>>> University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865 >>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk >>>>> <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>>> United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm >>>>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Professor Luc Moreau >>> Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487 >>> University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865 >>> Southampton SO17 1BJ email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk >>> <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>> United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm >>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl <mailto:p.t.groth@vu.nl>) >> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/ <http://www.few.vu.nl/%7Epgroth/> >> Assistant Professor >> Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group >> Artificial Intelligence Section >> Department of Computer Science >> VU University Amsterdam >> >> > -- Professor Luc Moreau Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487 University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865 Southampton SO17 1BJ email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Wednesday, 6 June 2012 12:34:36 UTC