Re: "Chrome"

Mike Beltzner wrote:
> It's not at all the case that the chrome populated with content from 
> web pages isn't under the browser's control. The browser is the 
> application that fetched it and placed it there, and the application 
> can choose not to, or choose only to do so according to specific 
> rules, etc.
Just to clarify definitions here, you're now using the term 
"application" to refer to the Firefox or IE as distinct from the web 
page?  We sometimes use "application" to refer to a web site, so I 
wanted to clarify.
>
> I think the real issue here is the potential for confusion about the 
> source of the content. That the content appears inline with what users 
> are used to thinking of as chrome -- that is to say, UI elements from 
> an application which they have chosen to run -- often makes users 
> assume that the content is being provided by the application, not the 
> web page.
Again, I assume application refers to an OS application? 

You have provided yet another definition of "chrome" more in line with 
the concrete definition of window chrome and separate from the semantic 
concept of chrome. 

Do we think the definitions I suggested earlier are insufficient or need 
to change in some way, or can they map clearly to what you're describing?
>
> All elements of chrome are under browser control. It's just that the 
> browser populates some of those elements from a website, which may not 
> be as trusted (by the user) as the browser.
Effectively, for certain parts of the "window chrome" the browser has 
decided to cede control of those pixels to the content.  Certainly, the 
entity which implements the browser application may use any pixel 
however they like, but if the application chooses to relegate the 
definition of those pixels to the content, then it is no longer a 
"browser-controlled presentation element" but instead it is a 
"content-controlled presentation element".

Better terminology or definitions are welcome?
>
> I think what we want to do is catalog the list of places where chrome 
> is populated by web page content and then see if we can find better 
> ways of expressing that concept.
That presumes we think making the "window chrome" the place to express 
security context information is the right solution.  I'm personally not 
sure the "window chrome" is the best place for that.  Perhaps the user 
should look elsewhere.

--Brad
>
> cheers,
> mike
>
> On 12-Feb-07, at 5:58 PM, Brad Porter wrote:
>
>> Yes, I agree that there are lots of sources for "semantic chrome" and 
>> today there's no way to know which presentation elements are 
>> browser-controlled vs which aren't.
>>
>> If the browser is going to say anything about the site at all, then 
>> the user needs to have some way of establishing trust with the browser.
>>
>> Consequently, I think establishing trust between 
>> user->browser-controlled-presentation-elements for those presentation 
>> elements which make statements about a web site is a prerequisite to 
>> pretty much any solution we come up with and therefore must be in scope.
>>
>> --Brad
>>
>> michael.mccormick@wellsfargo.com wrote:
>>> I like the distinction between "window chrome" and "semantic 
>>> chrome".  But I think there's a whole spectrum of semantic chrome 
>>> sources.  From most to least trusted, all the following can produce 
>>> such chrome: OS > base browser > TTP browser plug-in > TTP 
>>> script/applet/control > unintentionally activated 
>>> script/applet/control > malware emulating the OS or browser.
>>>
>>> For example all the things I just listed can generate pop-up 
>>> dialogs.  Ideally there's needs to be some contextual information in 
>>> the pop-up chrome that tells me its source or gives me contextual 
>>> cues about the source's trustworthiness.  In scope or not?
>>>
>>> From: public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org 
>>> [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Brad Porter
>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:24 AM
>>> To: Hal Lockhart
>>> Cc: Mike Beltzner; Bob Pinheiro; Mary Ellen Zurko; public-wsc-wg@w3.org
>>> Subject: Re: "Chrome"
>>>
>>> Your separation between semantic chrome and the desktop visual 
>>> chrome is genius.  Given that, I propose two phrases with definitions:
>>>
>>> window chrome -- visual elements used by Desktop browsers or the OS 
>>> window manager to surround the web page
>>>
>>> browser-controlled presentation elements -- any user interface 
>>> presentation controlled explicitly by the browser and not under 
>>> direct web page control
>>>
>>> --Brad
>>>
>>> Hal Lockhart wrote:
>>>> The key point I tried to make at the F2F was that the definitions 
>>>> that most of us would like to use for Chrome represent the way we 
>>>> wish browsers work or hope they will work in future. For example, a 
>>>> strict separation between what the application can control and what 
>>>> the browser controls seems desirable to most of us, but does not 
>>>> currently exist, as reported by many sources. The point of this 
>>>> comment is that first of all, we need to make this clear in our 
>>>> glossary, so as to avoid arguments about current violations. Also 
>>>> in evaluating potential definitions, we need to be aware of the 
>>>> present/future distinction. Looking at the thread below, I believe 
>>>> MEZ and Bob have proposed future definitions, whereas the two that 
>>>> Mike found are present definitions. I see the choice as being 
>>>> between defining Chrome in purely graphical terms (stuff around the 
>>>> edge of the screen) or semantically (stuff from browser not web 
>>>> site).  Hal
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org
>>>> [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Mike Beltzner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:13 
>>>>> AM To: Bob Pinheiro Cc: Mary Ellen Zurko; public-wsc-wg@w3.org 
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Chrome" A couple of definitions I found ..: "The 
>>>>> interface elements of a browser, or any other program, that create 
>>>>> the frame around the window that displays pages." (cite: 
>>>>> http://www.chriscassell.net/classes/2001/winter/gdt150/ 
>>>>> handouts/vocabulary.html) "The visible graphical interface 
>>>>> features of an application are sometimes referred to as "chrome". 
>>>>> They include graphical elements (widgets) that may be used to 
>>>>> interact with the program. Common widgets are: windows, buttons, 
>>>>> menus, and scroll bars. Larger widgets, such as windows, usually 
>>>>> provide a frame or container for the main presentation content 
>>>>> such as a web page, email message or drawing. Smaller ones usually 
>>>>> act as a user-input tool." (cite:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_chrome#GUI_design)
>>>>> I think the salient detail is that chrome is what allows the user 
>>>>> to interact with the browser alone from interacting with the web 
>>>>> content. Bob's point about the display of chrome being restricted 
>>>>> to the browser is also good to keep in mind, and relevant for our
>>>> purposes.
>>>>> cheers, mike On 12-Feb-07, at 9:44 AM, Bob Pinheiro wrote:
>>>>>> I thought the key distinction with regard to "chrome" is that 
>>>>>> there are certain areas of the browser window that are solely 
>>>>>> under the control of the browser, and not the website being 
>>>>>> displayed. So anything displayed in the "chrome" can be assumed 
>>>>>> to be coming from the browser itself, and not the website. 
>>>>>> However, if some browsers have areas where both the browser and 
>>>>>> the website can communicate information, that seems to muddy the 
>>>>>> issue. Maybe such areas should have a different name, reserving 
>>>>>> "chrome" for those areas where only the browser can communicate 
>>>>>> to the user. At 08:16 AM 2/12/2007, Mary Ellen Zurko wrote:
>>>>>>> During our f2f, the discussion about "chrome - what is it" came 
>>>>>>> up again. The discussion was part of going over "Poorly defined 
>>>>>>> role for chrome". It was a divergence at the time, so we decided 
>>>>>>> to take the discussion to the list. See: 
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/30-wsc-minutes.html "what is chrome? 
>>>>>>> diaglog boxes should be included" We'll need the definition of 
>>>>>>> Chrome for the Glossary that Tim is pulling together as well. 
>>>>>>> What I mean to mean by Chrome are the parts of the window that 
>>>>>>> include information that the User agent/Browser is trying to 
>>>>>>> communicate to the user, vs the parts where the browser is 
>>>>>>> (expected to) faithfully represent what the web site/page is 
>>>>>>> trying to communicate to the user. Some areas in some browsers 
>>>>>>> currently contain both (for example, the title area including 
>>>>>>> both the HTML title and browser identity information). Anyone 
>>>>>>> else have a better definition? I also remember people getting 
>>>>>>> fixated on the word. If the word itself is getting in the way of 
>>>>>>> a concept we consider important, then we can start using some 
>>>>>>> other word which we can all agree on. So this might instead be 
>>>>>>> an exercise where we agree on the concept first, then agree on 
>>>>>>> the word we'll use. [ACTION-132 - Start discussion on mailing 
>>>>>>> list to draw chrome items out and get analysis completed [on 
>>>>>>> Mary Ellen Zurko - due 2007-02-13].] Mez Mary Ellen Zurko, STSM, 
>>>>>>> IBM Lotus CTO Office (t/l 333-6389) Lotus/WPLC Security Strategy 
>>>>>>> and Patent Innovation Architect
>>>>>> --------------------------------------- Bob Pinheiro FSTC Project 
>>>>>> Management Bob.Pinheiro@FSTC.org 1 908-654-1939
>
>

Received on Tuesday, 13 February 2007 02:58:58 UTC