- From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:16:08 +0000
- To: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>, ian@hixie.ch, brewer@w3.org
- Cc: wai-xtech@w3.org, pstradomski@gmail.com, w3c-wai-pf@w3.org
- Message-Id: <20081127195831.M20244@hicom.net>
aloha!
this is clearly a case where common sense should rule the day, and
the difference between "d i a l o g" and "d i a l o g u e" takes on
a semantic meaning... so, to that effect, i have mounted a wiki page
on this issue:
http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Dialogue
which i would like the PF Caucus on HTML5, as well as the editors of
the HTML5 draft, and the chairs and membership of the HTML WG to
consider:
ISSUE: aria-dialog Versus HTML5's dialog Element
PRECIS: Currently, there is both an HTML5 element named dialog and an
ARIA role named dialog. A concern has been raised that the use of such
synonyms could be detrimental. The editor of the HTML5 draft, Ian
Hickson, has publicly stated that he is willing to change the
element's name, but also remarked that "dialog" was the best possible
choice out of the many considered by the WHAT WG, and pondered the
need for a "dialog box" element in HTML5 itself. [1] It has, therefore,
been proposed, that the aria role dialog retain the spelling "d i a l
o g"; that the spelling "d i a l o g" be reserved in HTML5 for the
concept of a "dialog box", thereby bringing ARIA and HTML5 into
harmony; and that the HTML5 element currently named "d i a l o g" be
changed to reflect the correct spelling for the semantic use for which
the element is intended, "d i a l o g u e".
_________________________________________________________________
Reasons for Retaining aria-dialog
1. it is a term known to computer programmers and professionals when
spelled "dialog"
2. it is the preferred spelling for this construct in computer
science
A. if one uses "dialog" as a search term at the online version
of the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary, the
Merriam-Webster entry on "dialog" [2] lists "dialogue" [3]
as the "main entry", with a related entry "dialog box" [4],
which is a computing, not a semantic, term
Reasons for Changing HTML5's dialog Element to dialogue
1. "dialogue" is the preferred spelling for the semantic meaning of
the term "dialog" as currently used in the HTML5 draft;
A. references:
I. wikipedia entry on "dialog" resolves to "dialogue" [5]
II. the Merriam-Webster entry on "dialog" [6] lists
"dialogue" [7] as the "main entry", with a related entry
"dialog box" [8]
2. since there are many different contexts in which DIALOGUE is an
appropriate element/container, the HTML5 dialogue element demands
a role attribute [9], in order to enable differentiation between
types of dialogue;
A. a preliminary list of predefined role values for DIALOGUE
follows:
* conversation
* dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the
element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types
of content)
* transcript
_________________________________________________________________
Email Exchanges
W3C Lists
w3c-wai-pf List (member confidential)
* FW: (html5) dialog [10]
* aria-dialog versus HTML5 DIALOG element [11]
wai-xtech List (public)
* aria-dialog versus HTML5's DIALOGUE (a proposal) thread [12]
WHAT WG Lists
help-whatwg.org List
* (html5) dialog thread [13]
_________________________________________________________________
References
1.
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2008-November/000151.html
2. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialog
3. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialogue
4. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialog%20box
5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialog
6. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialog
7. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialogue
8. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialog%20box
9. http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute
10. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008OctDec/0289.html
11.
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008OctDec/thread.html#msg290
12. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Nov/thread.html#msg75
13.
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2008-November/thread.html#142
----------------------------------------------------------------
CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net
Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
---------- Original Message -----------
From: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>
Cc: w3c-wai-pf@w3.org, pstradomski@gmail.com, "wai-xtech@w3.org WAI-XTECH"
<wai-xtech@w3.org>
Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:31:21 -0800
Subject: Re: aria-dialog and html5 element dialogue (a proposal)
> I'm not the public-html list, but feel free to take the
> discussion there and post to bugzilla if you think it's
> necessary. If I were you, I'd file your "dialog needs to be
> spelled* dialogue" crusade as a separate issue, because I'd
> have to vote that one down, too. ;-)
>
> For those of you on XTech that didn't see the beginning of this
> topic, check these two emails:
> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2008-November/000151.html
> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2008-November/000152.html
>
> Cheers,
> James
>
> * or should I say, "spelt"
>
> On Nov 26, 2008, at 5:37 PM, Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote:
>
> > aloha, james!
> >
> > if hixie is amenable to a change in the element's name, then by all
> > means, that is the best solution... i have proposed a universal
> > stroke global @role attribute for HTML5, so i would be in favor of
> > using @role to distinguish types of dialog, but with the caveat and
> > foreknowledge that the element name be semantically meaningful and
> > easily understood by those for whom english is not their first
> > language... so, i would nominate "dialogue" as the element name,
> > for that is actually the preferred spelling of the term when
> > applied to multiple speakers in 4 of the 5 online thesauri i
> > checked, so DIALOGUE as an HTML5 element name would make the most
> > sense (and for those who cry "bloat", it is only 2 characters)
> >
> > the next step is to provide a list of pre-defined roles for DIALOGUE:
> >
> > "conversation"
> > "transcript"
> > "dialogue" (yes, @dialogue -- what else is one to call it when it
> > applies
> > equally to theater, film, works of fiction, and so on)
> >
> > and what else? james, have you entered this into the W3C HTML5
> > bugzilla (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/bugzilla) -- should i? it would
> > be good to log the "issue" and then allow people to add predefined
> > role values in the bugzilla log -- is this the way that the PFWG can
> > accelerate and contribute "positively" to HTML5? (this is as much
> > of a question to the individual PF WG members and to the chairs as
> > it is rhetorical)
> >
> > lastly, and NOT tangentally, why is this NOT being discussed on
> > public-html? this is an example of the problems inherent in the
> > dual tracking of the HTML5 "effort" by the W3C and the WHAT WG --
> > this IS and will remain a SERIOUS problem until it is addressed in an
> > executive manner at the highest levels... note that i have posted
> > this
> > to a public list -- wai-xtech -- but NOT to public-html as i want to
> > take the WG's pulse on this (and the approach i've outlined) before
> > taking that step...
> >
> > gregory.
> >
> > ---------- Original Message -----------
> > From: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
> > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>
> > Cc: w3c-wai-pf@w3.org, pstradomski@gmail.com
> > Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:50:59 -0800
> > Subject: Re: aria-dialog versus HTML5 DIALOG element
> >
> >> Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote:
> >>
> >>> so, both aria-dialog and HTML5's DIALOG element are needed and
> >>> necessary, but both are intended for entirely different audiences
> >>> and
> >>> it is by contextualizing the use of aria-dialog that such confusion
> >>> will be avoided...
> >>
> >> I just want to minimize confusion between the two if it can be
> >> avoided. Ian is open to a name change if a better one exists. I
> >> suggested 'transcript' or just a simple 'dl' with an
> >> differentiating attribute.
> >>
> >>
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2008-November/000152.html
> > ------- End of Original Message -------
> >
------- End of Original Message -------
Received on Thursday, 27 November 2008 20:16:49 UTC