Chatlog 2012-07-09

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07:55:39 <RRSAgent> logging to
07:58:28 <PhilA> Guest: Laurence Miller
07:58:28 <PhilA> Guest: Elsa UNU
07:58:28 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, PhilA
07:58:56 <Zakim> +??P3
07:59:02 <PhilA> zakim, ??P3 is me
07:59:02 <Zakim> +PhilA; got it
07:59:24 <Zakim> +deirdrelee
07:59:27 <PhilA> zakim, mute me
07:59:27 <Zakim> PhilA should now be muted
07:59:32 <PhilA> zakim, unmute me
07:59:32 <Zakim> PhilA should no longer be muted
08:00:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:00:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
08:00:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV(Eurasian)4:00AM already started
08:00:46 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
08:00:46 <trackbot> Date: 09 July 2012
08:00:55 <Deirdre Lee> scribe: Deirdre Lee
08:00:57 <Laurence Miller> Laurence Miller has joined #egov
08:02:10 <PhilA> zakim, who is here?
08:02:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see +8532871aaaa, PhilA, Deirdre Lee
08:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Laurence Miller, Deirdre Lee, Zakim, RRSAgent, elsa, PhilA, agipap, tomasz, ed_, CaptSolo, sandro, trackbot
08:02:23 <Deirdre Lee> chair: tomasz
08:02:53 <tomasz> zakim, aaaa
08:02:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaaa', tomasz
08:02:53 <Deirdre Lee> agenda:
08:03:01 <PhilA> zakim, aaaa is tomasz
08:03:01 <Zakim> +tomasz; got it
08:03:15 <PhilA> zakim, tomasz has elsa
08:03:15 <Zakim> +elsa; got it
08:03:35 <PhilA> zakim, who is here?
08:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see tomasz, PhilA, Deirdre Lee
08:03:36 <Zakim> tomasz has elsa
08:03:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Laurence Miller, Deirdre Lee, Zakim, RRSAgent, elsa, PhilA, agipap, tomasz, ed_, CaptSolo, sandro, trackbot
08:05:45 <Deirdre Lee> agenda:
08:06:56 <PhilA> Laurence Miller: will you be dialling in?
08:07:53 <Laurence Miller> 3468 does not seem to get me in
08:08:02 <Zakim> +??P12
08:08:33 <PhilA> zakim, ??P12 is Laurence Miller
08:08:33 <Zakim> +Laurence Miller; got it
08:09:09 <PhilA> zakim, who is here?
08:09:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see tomasz, PhilA, Deirdre Lee, Laurence Miller
08:09:10 <Zakim> tomasz has elsa
08:09:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see Laurence Miller, Deirdre Lee, Zakim, RRSAgent, elsa, PhilA, agipap, tomasz, ed_, CaptSolo, sandro, trackbot
08:10:13 <PhilA> presentation is at
08:11:10 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: aim of telco is to discuss #egov roadmap
08:11:48 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: it would be good to introduce ourselves at some stage, to get to know each other
08:12:27 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: introducing himself, works in Macau
08:12:35 <Deirdre Lee> ... with tomasz is Elsa
08:13:06 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: in Wellington, working in eGov 2004-2009, now an advisor in eGovernment
08:13:55 <Deirdre Lee> ... has been following eGov group for long time, but time of telcos were barrier to participate, delighted about new structure
08:14:12 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: would be great to get more participants from Eurasian area
08:14:29 <Deirdre Lee> ... works in W3C and on European Commission projects
08:14:48 <Deirdre Lee> ... role to facilitate eGov group and support Jeanne and Tomasz
08:15:12 <PhilA> Deirdre Lee: I'm at DERI, Galway
08:15:22 <PhilA> ... focused on sem web, linked data etc.
08:15:37 <PhilA> ... in eGov we want to apply those techs to public data
08:15:44 <PhilA> ... eParticipation etc.
08:15:53 <PhilA> ... lots of European projects and national level
08:16:32 <Deirdre Lee> topic: draft #egov roadmap
08:17:15 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: need to organise discussions, roadmap can help
08:17:45 <Deirdre Lee> ... present context of domain in general and this group
08:18:14 <Deirdre Lee> ... Public Sector ICT is a well established area
08:18:47 <Deirdre Lee> ... describes evolving goals
08:19:23 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: elaborate on policy and development goals
08:19:33 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: will further on in presentation
08:20:05 <Deirdre Lee> ... question mark over where this area will go next
08:20:59 <Deirdre Lee> ... there are corresponding goals, challenges and limitations to technology in governmnet
08:21:17 <Deirdre Lee> s/governmnet/government
08:22:13 <Deirdre Lee> ... stage 1 of Public Sector ICT is technology in government
08:22:16 <Deirdre Lee> ... stage 2 of Public Sector ICT is electronic government
08:22:35 <Deirdre Lee> ... stage 2 of Public Sector ICT is electronic governance
08:22:52 <Deirdre Lee> s/stage 2/stage3
08:25:39 <Deirdre Lee> ... policy-driven electronic governance
08:26:22 <Deirdre Lee> ... why and how will be guided by the policy framework
08:27:43 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller; not sure if policy-cycle is only available in stage 4
08:28:00 <Deirdre Lee> ... in many countries it is available in earlier stages as well
08:28:41 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: agrees with comment, but particularly at the local-level we have to look at specific policy objectives
08:30:37 <Deirdre Lee> ... describes related W3C standards an themes around eGov
08:31:17 <Deirdre Lee> ... poses question, how to organise existing themes, discussions and outcomes of the W3C EGOV IG with respect to each other and with respect to the larger thematic context?
08:31:40 <Deirdre Lee> ... roadmap addresses this question
08:32:38 <Deirdre Lee> ... defines localisation of framework
08:33:16 <Deirdre Lee> ... concrete example of policy goal is sustainable development
08:34:46 <Deirdre Lee> ... discusses questions related to how eGov can be achieved
08:35:07 <Deirdre Lee> ... discusses questions related to why eGov is important, i.e. what is the value proposition
08:35:24 <Deirdre Lee> ... hope group members can help add some questions to those already defined
08:35:45 <Deirdre Lee> ... discusses questions related to the localisation of eGov 
08:36:31 <Deirdre Lee> ... describes an example of UNU of transfer of knowledge to other countries
08:37:04 <Deirdre Lee> .... discuses questions related to the foundations of eGov
08:37:41 <Deirdre Lee> ... there has been discussion on the mailing list if we should pursue the definition of eGov at a conceptual level
08:37:46 <Deirdre Lee> ... with mixed responses
08:38:20 <Deirdre Lee> ... looks at social media as an example of an eGov theme
08:38:39 <Deirdre Lee> ... and how it relates to policy framework
08:39:55 <Deirdre Lee> ... presents matrix of eGov dimensions and themes
08:40:34 <Deirdre Lee> ... describes how members can contribute to the implementation of this roadmap
08:40:54 <Deirdre Lee> ... through creating new questions, addressing existing questions, etc.
08:41:35 <Deirdre Lee> ... members can also contribute through the bimonthly conference calls
08:42:24 <Deirdre Lee> ... hopes to create technical notes based on group discussions
08:42:48 <Deirdre Lee> ... any questions/input?
08:43:19 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: role is to support work in group
08:43:33 <Deirdre Lee> ... picking up on some outcomes of recent events
08:43:44 <Deirdre Lee> ... should there be a greater emphasis on digital divide?
08:44:20 <Deirdre Lee> ... how much effort for public administrations to make services available to those not online?
08:44:39 <Deirdre Lee> ... how could group help with this question?
08:45:14 <Deirdre Lee> Tomasz: matching supply and demand of services, not  much use providing services if they are not used
08:45:36 <Deirdre Lee> ... gives example of ?? where training was provided to support online services
08:45:47 <PhilA> s/??/Estonia/
08:45:53 <Laurence Miller> it was estonia
08:46:15 <Deirdre Lee> ... integration of online and offline services, as well as services that are provided across different channels
08:46:32 <Deirdre Lee> Elsa: also provision of services across multiple digital channels
08:46:43 <Deirdre Lee> ... this could be added as a theme of discussion
08:47:20 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: does not agree that the Web is not distinct from mobile and TV, as the Web is a multi-channel platform, 
08:47:59 <Deirdre Lee> ... if the service is made available in adaptable format, then Web can be seen as multi-channel
08:48:26 <Deirdre Lee> Tomasz: this is not just a technical challenge, but also an organisational challenge
08:48:55 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: delivery to mobile devices is fragmented, compared to Web delivery, 
08:49:14 <Deirdre Lee> ... suggests this is due to widespread Web standards
08:49:16 <PhilA> A big +1 to Laurence Miller
08:50:02 <Deirdre Lee> ... disagrees with Tomasz that providing on a mobile device will require change to back-office, as this will be handled by middleware
08:50:52 <Deirdre Lee> ... regarding digital divide, when you reach a critical mass, you can turn off other channels
08:51:12 <PhilA> q+
08:51:16 <Deirdre Lee> ... gives example of letting and company registration
08:52:00 <Deirdre Lee> ... at a certain point, public services can be offered online only, there are ways of handling this
08:52:36 <Deirdre Lee> ... for example in Denmark, citizens can go through an agent or Internet cafe, where the online service is utilised
08:53:17 <Deirdre Lee> Tomasz: to clarify on back-office, he meant more general, not just different electronic channels
08:53:43 <Deirdre Lee> ... the nature of digital divide is changing over time. 
08:54:14 <Deirdre Lee> ... it was originally about access to Internet, but now is more about education about Internet usage
08:54:57 <PhilA> q?
08:55:08 <Laurence Miller> q+
08:55:16 <PhilA> ack Laurence Miller
08:55:30 <PhilA> ack me
08:56:00 <tomasz> q?
08:56:29 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: interested in Laurence Miller's comment on public services completely online
08:56:37 <Deirdre Lee> ... examples given are B2B, 
08:56:57 <Deirdre Lee> ... how does services for individuals fit in?
08:57:26 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: similar, census is coming up next here and they are hoping to get ??% online
08:57:59 <Deirdre Lee> ... same principle for indivuals' services, you provide incentives
08:58:23 <Deirdre Lee> ... gradual introduction
08:59:08 <elsa> q+
08:59:30 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: Neelie Kroes commented that 1/3 of European households do not have internet connection at home and 1/2 of European adults have not been online
08:59:50 <Deirdre Lee> ... shocking when Denmark claims it has no digital divide
09:00:03 <tomasz> ack me
09:00:04 <Deirdre Lee> Tomasz: they have mobiles
09:00:57 <Deirdre Lee> Elsa: topic to discuss is the take-up of public services
09:01:28 <Deirdre Lee> Tomasz: any comments concerning the roadmap itself?
09:01:44 <Deirdre Lee> q+
09:01:59 <tomasz> ack ?
09:02:00 <Deirdre Lee> ... any suggestions on how to improve the roadmap?
09:02:13 <PhilA> q- elsa
09:02:34 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: in relation to value proposition, it is not clear what is meant by sustainable development
09:02:55 <Deirdre Lee> Tomasz: SD is an example of a policy objective
09:04:38 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: doesn't see how framework/matrix can help for all policy objectives
09:04:54 <Deirdre Lee> ... policy objectives should be rows on matrix
09:05:01 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: agrees
09:06:22 <PhilA> Deirdre Lee: In relation to the outcomes. The roadmap covers the different topic areas, but with regards to outcomes, it seems a little vague still
09:06:43 <PhilA> ... what kind of recommendations do we want to make? 
09:07:05 <PhilA> tomasz: So you're making a distinction between the topics and the outcomes?
09:07:27 <PhilA> Deirdre Lee: Yes. The danger is that we have endless interesting discussions that don't achieve anything
09:07:34 <PhilA> tomasz: I agree
09:07:54 <PhilA> ack Deirdre Lee
09:08:10 <PhilA> tomasz: We need to think about how the roadmap can lead to specific outputs
09:08:26 <PhilA> elsa: One possibility would be to apply the roadmap to specific themes of interest
09:09:14 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: was in the room when roadmap was being discussed
09:09:24 <Deirdre Lee> ... theme of social media comes up a lot
09:09:42 <Deirdre Lee> ... many governments have published guidelines on how to use social media
09:10:22 <Deirdre Lee> ... look at how social media is used by citizens to feed back into governments
09:10:44 <Deirdre Lee> ... so to focus on a theme, such as social media, could be useful to focus group
09:10:53 <Deirdre Lee> ... to apply roadmap
09:11:14 <Deirdre Lee> Elsa: start thinking about questions related to social media
09:11:46 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: the social media theme was given as an example on slide 23 of presentation
09:11:56 <Deirdre Lee> ... with questions associated with it
09:12:39 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: agrees to roadtest roadmap with a theme like social media and ??
09:13:15 <Deirdre Lee> ... struggling to understand what is meant by 'localisation' in the roadmap
09:13:56 <Deirdre Lee> ... surprised that localisation refers to a particular country
09:14:22 <Deirdre Lee> ... as most eGov refers to a particular country anyway
09:14:42 <Deirdre Lee> ... apart from some global organisations, like OECD
09:14:57 <Deirdre Lee> ... we need to think of a better word than localisation
09:15:21 <Deirdre Lee> ... transnational is not as relevant as sub-national and regional transfer of eGov practices
09:15:55 <Deirdre Lee> Tomasz: agrees
09:16:46 <Deirdre Lee> ... there are many standards/models/etc. from international organisations that don't take into account the localisation of eGov practices
09:16:56 <Deirdre Lee> ... at a national level
09:17:39 <PhilA> q+
09:17:54 <Deirdre Lee> ... there is a need for eGov to go sectoral
09:18:01 <tomasz> ack me
09:18:08 <Deirdre Lee> ... not just horizontal
09:18:23 <PhilA> ack PhilA
09:18:51 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: thinks in terms of standards
09:19:25 <Deirdre Lee> ... if ewhen writing a standard is applicable to NZ system, but not Danish, it is not published, and they go back to something that is applicable to all
09:19:38 <Deirdre Lee> ... otherwise it is application-specific
09:20:12 <Deirdre Lee> ... any implmentation will be in a specific context, but a guideline should be applicable in any context, otherwise guideline is wrong
09:21:49 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: understands context is important, but, to go back at stages outlined in roadmap, eGov practices depends on the stage the particular country is at
09:22:37 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: agrees that localisation dimension requires more work
09:23:15 <Deirdre Lee> Elsa: is there a common repository where we can share resources?
09:23:22 <PhilA> There is a wiki
09:23:52 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: members of the group will have login to be able to edit wiki
09:24:28 <Deirdre Lee> tomasz: to summarise, we covered multi-channel delivery of services
09:24:49 <Deirdre Lee> ... some governments decision to provide services only online
09:25:08 <Deirdre Lee> ... to test roadmap with example of a topic, e.g. social media
09:25:30 <Deirdre Lee> ... the roadmap will be revised and a new version created
09:25:39 <Deirdre Lee> .... will discuss suggestions with Jeanne
09:26:23 <Deirdre Lee> Laurence Miller: how to use SIP with skype?
09:26:46 <Deirdre Lee> PhilA: SIP is different protocol than Skype
09:26:57 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:26:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate PhilA
09:27:17 <Zakim> -Deirdre Lee
09:27:19 <Zakim> -PhilA
09:27:28 <Zakim> -tomasz
09:27:35 <PhilA> zakim, bye
09:27:35 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +8532871aaaa, PhilA, Deirdre Lee, elsa, Laurence Miller
09:27:36 <Zakim> Zakim has left #egov