Chatlog 2011-12-20

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21:57:12 <RRSAgent> logging to
21:58:55 <Sarah> Guest: Tim Vollmer , Sarah Hinchcliff Pearson
21:58:56 <Sarah> Guest: Sarah Hinchcliff Pearson
21:58:55 <Sarah> Guest: Anne Fitzgerald
21:58:56 <bhandspicker> I'm driving but listening
21:58:57 <rachel> here
21:58:58 <gannon> here
21:58:59 <brand> here
21:59:00 <tlr> here
22:00:04 <tvol> hi i'm tvol, aka Timothy Vollmer from Creative Commons. I'm calling in from Mountain View, CA. 
22:00:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see Sarah, Zakim, RRSAgent, PhilA2, gdick, annew, davemc, tvol, MacTed, VanjaO, trackbot, sandro
22:02:22 <tvol> we have slides if anyone wants to follow along. 
22:02:44 <davemc> yes please (to slides
22:02:53 <PhilA2> zakim, code?
22:02:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, PhilA2
22:02:58 <bgryth> bgryth has joined #egov
22:03:35 <TopCoderPaul> TopCoderPaul has joined #egov
22:04:04 <annew> Can you send a link for the materials?
22:04:43 <Bhyland> Bhyland has joined #egov
22:05:41 <Jeanne_> eGov IG was the name of the Zakim telecon
22:05:43 <Brand> Brand has joined #egov
22:06:29 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #egov
22:06:36 <Bhyland> Speakers today are Dr. Anne Fitzgerald, University of Queensland,    --Sarah Pearson and team, Creative Commons,   Agenda:   --Licensing issues for open data and government services   --Impacts of licensing choices on providers and consumers of data and services   --Looking at specific uses of Creative Commons   --Open questions
22:06:51 <egov> egov has joined #egov
22:07:20 <annew> Presentation is at
22:08:24 <Bhyland> Topic: general awareness raising on licensing structures and licenses that are being used for eGov content.
22:09:20 <Bhyland> @Jeanne do you have a scribe or want want for this meeting?
22:10:30 <Jeanne_> Bernadette, yes I do need a scribe.  Would you be willing to do so?
22:10:56 <Bhyland> Jim and Sarah Pearson and the Creative Commons team are calling in from California 
22:11:56 <bgryth> Is anyone else having a problem downloading the slide deck?
22:11:58 <Bhyland> @jeanne, I can as long as Net access holds while I'm a passenger in a car on I-95.
22:12:17 <davemc> I got it but it took two tries
22:13:16 <PhilA2> chair: Jeanne Holm
22:13:27 <PhilA2> scribe: Bhyland
22:13:46 <PhilA2> agenda:
22:13:57 <Bhyland> Jeanne- can you put the link to the slides in IRC please
22:14:12 <PhilA2> Slides now
22:15:04 <Jeanne_> Bgryth:  It should be the first link on the page at then right click and "save as" will be a clean download
22:16:40 <Bhyland> s/Jim/Timothy Vollmer
22:16:59 <bgryth> @Jeanne thank worked perfectly.
22:17:45 <Bhyland> Tim described many different government uses of the CC-0 license, see the presentation associated with this talk.
22:18:01 <PhilA2> present+ Jeanne_Holm, Anne_Washington, Brian_Gryth, Dave_McAllister, Gannon_Dick, Rachel_Flagg
22:20:23 <Bhyland> US Gov't uses CC licenses and there is recent precedent for use of the CC-BY license by the US Dept of Labor and Dept of Education which is a notable new development.
22:21:32 <Bhyland> Bhyland has joined #egov
22:21:36 <Brand> Brand has left #egov
22:22:59 <Bhyland> Sarah speaking on the importance of publishing content with a license.  First, legal certainty of use of content is important.
22:23:48 <Brand> Brand has joined #egov
22:24:02 <Bhyland> Additionally, Interoperability, notice, And metadata.  Again, providing certainty for use of content.
22:24:43 <Brand> Brand has joined #egov
22:27:21 <Jeanne_> Sarah noted that CC alows use without endorsement, avoids misrepresentation, and protects the insignia or brand of the publisher
22:27:25 <Bhyland> Creative Commons licensing addresses issues to ensure credit, No endorsement, No misrepresentation.  Insignias and brands are not affected by use in CC licensed content.
22:28:02 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov
22:28:26 <Bhyland> Tim: CC-0 offers content into the Public Domain, including database rights.  It is the gold standard.
22:28:44 <Jeanne_> More on the CC Zero tool can be found at
22:31:40 <Jeanne_> Jeanne is scribe
22:32:07 <Jeanne_> Sarah: there are other options as well, including the open data commons that applies only to databases.  
22:32:22 <Jeanne_> CC applies to the databases as well as the content and the database structure.
22:32:48 <Jeanne_> Attribution content is a little difficult, and more flexibility is in the CC rather than the ODC
22:33:09 <PhilA2> The UK Gov Licence is at
22:33:25 <Jeanne_> Sarah: the UK Open Government license is also used
22:33:31 <PhilA2> scribe: Jeanne_
22:33:46 <Jeanne_> Sarah: Custom licenses can be used as well, but can provide interoperability issues for developers and consumers of the data
22:34:14 <Jeanne_> Sarah: CC has just launched the public discussion on version 4.0
22:34:16 <tvol> more info on 4.0 here:
22:34:36 <tvol> we invite your participation of course!
22:34:57 <Jeanne_> Sarah: Some governments have had issues with the current licenses looking at database rights, internationalization (drafting conventions), interoperability, and simplifying attribution
22:35:46 <Jeanne_> Sarah: These are the big topic areas considering for version 4.0
22:36:32 <PhilA2> scribe: PhilA2
22:36:52 <Bhyland> Bhyland has joined #egov
22:37:31 <PhilA2> Jeanne_: Govs at different levels around the world are publishing open data, thinking of members of the IG not present this eve, what should developing countries be looking for?
22:37:39 <PhilA2> Sarah: First thing is to work out who actually owns the rights
22:37:43 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_: What are some of the common issues that need to be resolved before a city or country can make decisions about licensing?
22:37:46 <PhilA2> ... sounds simple but it may not be
22:37:56 <PhilA2> ... privacy law also comes in
22:37:57 <Jeanne_> Sarah: Determine who owns the data, which can be complicated.
22:38:26 <Jeanne_> Thanks Phil!
22:38:27 <Bhyland> Sarah: RE: first step to attaching a license  is to figure out WHO owns the data to begin with before determining which CC or open license to apply.
22:39:01 <Bhyland> Second are privacy related.  Is there any personally identifiable I fo pp
22:39:06 <PhilA2> Present+ Brand_Niemann, Thomas_Roessler
22:39:16 <PhilA2> scribe: Bhyland
22:40:00 <Bhyland> s/I fo pp/information.
22:40:43 <Jeanne_> Are the any questions from the chat group here?
22:40:44 <Bhyland> Jeanne asked about associating a license with content.  
22:41:14 <GuestPerson> GuestPerson has joined #egov
22:42:01 <Bhyland> Sarah: while USG is made available under the public domain, that is true in the US but not necessarily outside of the US.  Thus, content may not have the impact desired.
22:42:16 <GuestPerson_> GuestPerson_ has joined #egov
22:42:17 <PhilA2> So far I have
22:42:21 <Bhyland>
22:42:45 <Bhyland>
22:44:24 <Bhyland> Brian from Cclorado asked a question about database rights in the US
22:46:39 <Bhyland> AnneFitzgerald spoke on international treatment of database rights.  There is no clear dividing line on what is protected and what is not.  It is largely based on precedent.
22:47:07 <Bhyland> Brian McGrath, involved with NGO in State of Colorado.
22:47:35 <PhilA2> Present+ Brain McGrath
22:47:44 <Bhyland> Attorney, but not copyright expert... Looking to use a CC license if at all possible.
22:48:24 <PhilA2> Maybe this one for example (it's the most recent)
22:50:48 <Bhyland> AnneF: pointed to a wealth of presentations that detail what she is speaking about,  There is a lot of AU precedent for geospatial content, Gov't datasets for natural disasters.
22:51:31 <davemc> I've got to drop at 3 PDT for a call on Accessibility. sorry for the conflict.
22:51:46 <Jeanne_> Thanks for joining us Dave!
22:51:56 <PhilA2> Present Anne_Fitzgerald
22:52:17 <Bhyland> AU geospatial community have been the pioneers of a simplified licensing model circa 2005.
22:52:38 <bgryth> @Bhyland it is Brian Gryth.
22:52:41 <davemc> davemc has left #egov
22:52:52 <PhilA2> rrsagent, make logs public
22:53:13 <Bhyland> Beginnings of the proposal was based on CC framework by 2006.  By 2010, they had a completed framework.
22:53:56 <Bhyland> s/Brian McGrath/Brian Gryth
22:54:46 <Bhyland> CC-BY is being accepted by AU Gov't at local, state and national level.
22:56:12 <Bhyland> AU geospatial people, the data creators and custodians drove this.  The Queensland Gov helped pioneer this work.
22:57:41 <Bhyland> AnneF: in 2011 the environmental science community has really pursued use of CC licenses and identify which one is right for their needs.  
22:57:54 <Bhyland> Note - Australia is different...
22:58:31 <Bhyland> Different than many Gov't that don't assert a government copyright.
22:59:41 <Bhyland> AnneF:  AU has a sophisticated understanding and wide uptake in the use of CC licenses.  This has rea
23:00:14 <Bhyland> Really helped strengthen reuse and new (derivative?) works.
23:00:53 <PhilA2> Bhyland: Thanks to Sarah, Tim and Anne for the presentations. Can you tell us about some of the lessons learned about how you brought people up the learning curve
23:01:11 <PhilA2> ... was it through guidelines? Reaching the stewards of the data?
23:01:26 <PhilA2> ... I'm more concerned with data on the Web
23:01:50 <PhilA2> AnneF: That's a hard question. In Au we didn't have as clear cut a position as in the US for a policy framework
23:02:52 <PhilA2> ... that was a big issue. Getting people to see where the international direction of travel was heading
23:03:05 <tvol> anne mentioned OMB. See
23:03:13 <Bhyland> AnneF: in the US Gov, there is no copyright ascribed in data.... There is clear policy framework prescribed by the US OMB.  In AU, this was not the case.  The AU open Gov't day
23:03:30 <Bhyland> s/day/data advocates.
23:04:17 <Bhyland> Worked with Open Access data through the major agencies with publishable data, eg geospatial camp,
23:06:03 <Bhyland> In in AU, circa 2004-2005 there was a lot of person to person advocacy with key agencies, eg AU Bureau of Statistics and Geodata
23:06:48 <Bhyland> s/Geodata 
23:07:42 <Bhyland> There needs to be senior and experienced people who can speak knowledgeably about copyright law with public sector employees.
23:08:28 <Bhyland> We have advantage of the uptake of CC-BY licenses by other governments around the world.
23:08:37 <PhilA2> q?
23:11:55 <PhilA2> Worth dropping this into the IRC
23:12:01 <Bhyland> AnneF: explained nuances of CC-BY attribution.  There are a bunch of fact sheets on the AU Creative Commons website.  
23:16:33 <PhilA2> Lots of materials available at including videos, talks etc.
23:17:11 <PhilA2> Next meeting is 17 Jan 2012
23:17:22 <PhilA2> Jeanne_: invites agenda items
23:17:43 <PhilA2> ... hoping to talk about CKAN etc.
23:18:23 <PhilA2> Jeanne_: Thanks to Bernadette for scribing
23:18:26 <bgryth> bgryth has left #egov
23:18:32 <tvol> thanks everyone please feel to send other questions
23:18:33 <PhilA2> ... and to everyone for sharing knowledge today