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<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 <sandro> Guest: Jason (jkiss) Kiss <sandro> Guest: Mark Crawford <sandro> Guest: Kevin Simkins <sandro> Guest: Bernard Gidon <sandro> Guest: Virginie Galindo <sandro> Guest: Chingteng Hsiao <sandro> Guest: Cheng Hung #<sandro> irconly: gdick, somnath <sandro> Present: Dave_McAllister, Hadley_Beeman, Jeanne_Holm, John_Erickson, Phil_Archer, Yosuke_Funahashi <sandro> Remote: Sandro_Hawke, Paola Di Maio, Bernadette Hyland, Gannon Dick, Somnath Chandra, josema, bhandspicker 12:53:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-irc 12:53:21 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 12:53:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov all-day meeting Oct 31, Nov 1 -- http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 12:54:02 <Paola> Paola has joined #egov 12:54:41 <Paola> greets! 13:26:07 <Eyal_Sela-IL> Eyal_Sela-IL has joined #egov 13:49:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #egov 13:49:36 <sandro> zakim, this will be egov 15:36:29 <Raghu> Raghu has joined #egov 15:44:28 <gdick> gdick has joined #eGov 15:45:49 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has joined #egov 15:47:09 <davemc> davemc has joined #egov 15:54:26 <sandro> zakim, this will be egov 15:54:26 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago 15:54:34 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer? 15:54:34 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-irc#T15-54-34 15:54:41 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public 15:58:04 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov all-day meeting Oct 31, Nov 1 -- http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 Conf Code 346844 15:58:21 <sandro> grrr. the conference code is egovIG not egov. 15:58:59 <jkiss> jkiss has joined #egov 15:59:02 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 15:59:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:59:42 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #egov 16:01:11 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov 16:02:44 <sandro> PhilA, there's a speakerphone there and you'll be dialing in? 16:02:52 <sandro> (or having Zakim dial out) 16:03:01 <sandro> great. :) 16:03:06 <HadleyBeeman> (And good morning, by the way!) 16:03:16 <sandro> Good morning, Hadley :) 16:03:35 <sandro> Are y'all in your best halloween costumes? 16:03:49 <HadleyBeeman> I was told to dress up as a Brit who doesn't do Halloween costumes :) 16:04:02 <davemc> yes, I'm pretending to be an Adobe employee 16:04:04 <sandro> And I bet you did a good job. 16:04:12 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_ was kind enough to bring is all candy though. It does feel festive. 16:04:29 <Zakim> +tpac 16:04:43 <davemc> yep on the candy. Heath bars, the second most addictive candy in the world 16:04:50 <gdick> Dressed up as a snow shoveler, Sandro ? 16:05:07 <sandro> :-) gdick only a few inches here. 16:05:30 <Jeanne_> I'll have to send candy bars to everyone who's on virtually--happy halloween! 16:05:58 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov 16:06:09 <sandro> Meeting: eGov IG F2F4 Day 1 16:06:13 <sandro> Chair: Jeanne Holm 16:06:14 <olyerickson> I'm on.... 16:06:27 <PhilA> Zakim, please welcome olyerickson he had to work hard to get here 16:06:27 <Zakim> I don't understand you, PhilA 16:06:48 <Zakim> +bhyland 16:07:12 <olyerickson> Good Afternoon @bhyland 16:09:14 <somnath> somnath has joined #egov 16:09:43 <Zakim> + +1.410.975.aaaa 16:11:33 <Paola> good people, can you tell how long this session should last? is it a couple o hrs or all day? 16:11:36 <bhyland> zakim, who is speaking? 16:11:47 <Zakim> bhyland, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 16:12:01 <sandro> Paola, all day. http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 16:12:09 <Paola> ok rephraseL zakim, can you tell how long this session should last? is it a couple o hrs or all day? 16:12:28 <sandro> Topic: Intros 16:12:34 <Paola> thanks s 16:12:44 <bhyland> @Paola, is goes from 9:00 AM US PST until 17:00 16:12:46 <sandro> for the minutes, Paola, what's your name? 16:12:57 <Paola> Paola Di Maio 16:13:26 <sandro> right, of course, Paola :-) 16:13:28 <Paola> I will be around an hour or so 16:13:33 <PhilA> Scribe duties 16:13:38 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #egov 16:14:37 <bhyland> Sandro: Audio has some feedback / static. Could that be due to where the speakers are physically located. I can hear Phil, Jeanne OK 16:14:54 <sandro> s/:/,/ 16:14:58 <bhyland> But there is static when they speak. 16:15:20 <sandro> bhyland, Yeah .. I expect it's the just the hotel air handlers, but we can ask them to try to adjust things. 16:15:24 <PhilA> General conversation about how eGovIG came about 16:16:04 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: gives her elevator/how I explain it to my mum and dad pitch 16:16:29 <Zakim> - +1.410.975.aaaa 16:16:51 <PhilA> davemc: tries to think who was in the egov mark I 16:17:12 <PhilA> Jeanne: begins the meeting 16:17:24 <PhilA> scribe: PhilA 16:17:40 <PhilA> JH: WE have 2 days with a loosely structured agenda 16:17:57 <PhilA> JH: I get the sense of what a lot of people want to happen in these 2 days 16:18:05 <PhilA> ... sharing and community building is important 16:18:16 <PhilA> ... the World bank and Warsaw event are important 16:18:20 <PhilA> ... code is important 16:18:24 <PhilA> ... licences are important 16:18:58 <PhilA> ... we're not a standards body. Good that bhyland is here as GLD WG co-chair 16:19:16 <sandro> zakim, IPcaller is Paola 16:19:16 <Zakim> +Paola; got it 16:19:23 <PhilA> JH: we can be advocates for that we believe in 16:19:35 <PhilA> ... someone said they really wanted to have projects based on this group 16:19:39 <Paola> she is speaking very fast 16:20:00 <Paola> Jeanne, a bit louder and a touch slower if possible for remote :=_ 16:20:02 <Paola> thanks 16:20:12 <PhilA> ... it makes sense to work together in projects 16:20:38 <PhilA> ... so I'll reiterate topics for the week - see wiki http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 16:21:13 <PhilA> JH: has arrived with Lego bricks and hallowe'en treats 16:21:21 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov 16:21:26 <PhilA> ... tour de table 16:21:52 <PhilA> ... who are you. why are you here? what can you contribute? What's the biggest challenge you face 16:22:26 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: I'm here as an IE. Open data lead at technology Strategy Board in the UK 16:22:37 <PhilA> ... here to avoid having working everything out for ourselves 16:22:43 <sandro> bhyland, so far IRC suggests its like this: http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-10-31 16:22:48 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #egov 16:22:52 <PhilA> ... career has covered lots of the subjects on the agenda 16:23:11 <PhilA> ... interested in the non-tech messaging, connecting citizens, govt etc. 16:23:30 <PhilA> Jeanne_: I'm evangelist for open data at data.gov. Prof at UCLA etc. 16:23:39 <PhilA> Jeanne_: excited about building the community 16:23:48 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland, there are 8 of us in the room 16:24:12 <PhilA> Jeanne_: hoping to bring experiences of good and bad ideas 16:24:24 <PhilA> davemc: I'm Dave McAllister from Adobe 16:24:30 <PhilA> ... was part of the original eGov IG 16:24:43 <PhilA> ... we ended up with statememts of what the issues 16:25:31 <PhilA> ... want to bring an understanding of the open communities. Licenses, IPR, make sure we explore the right avenue. Want to make sure that data has context and owndership and they're as important as the right to use the data 16:25:44 <Jeanne_> Dave McAllister is part of "open communities" and the open source. 16:25:45 <sandro> name of current speaker? 16:25:50 <PhilA> jkiss: from the NZ govt. Dept of internal affairs 16:25:55 <Jeanne_> Jason Kiss is speaking 16:25:56 <PhilA> jkiss: is Jason Kiss 16:26:30 <bhyland> Current speaker is very hard to hear … far from mic?? 16:26:33 <PhilA> Mark Crawford: from SAP here as an observer. Have persoanl interest 16:26:41 <davemc> hes far from mic 16:27:01 <PhilA> Mark Crawford has done a lot of work in this area 16:27:19 <PhilA> Yosuke Funahashi is on committe of japanese Govt 16:27:53 <PhilA> working on Web/TV devices and how they can deliver eGov 16:28:06 <PhilA> for example following events like the Tsunami 16:28:52 <PhilA> ... recently govt. set extra budget how to restructure Japanese local govt. systems using eGov tech 16:29:05 <Jeanne_> Phil Archer is speaking 16:29:20 <olyerickson> PhilA is "not Sandro..." 16:29:29 <Jeanne_> Phil is here in place of Sandro, who has been ill. Works on eGov issues and will share today 16:29:31 <olyerickson> ... member of team 16:29:46 <somnath> q+ 16:29:47 <dmcallis> dmcallis has joined #egov 16:29:54 <Jeanne_> Phil needs to be nice to Jason (pass him a candy bar) 16:30:00 <olyerickson> ... support Jeanne 16:30:04 <olyerickson> ... be face ofw3c 16:30:04 <olyerickson> ... duties: being v.v.nice to Jason 16:30:06 <Jeanne_> He's the face of the W3C 16:30:13 <olyerickson> q? 16:30:47 <somnath> I am somnath working with Govt of India Can share Govt of India Experience on E-Gov 16:30:59 <PhilA> somnath: You wanted to talk? 16:31:06 <somnath> yes pl 16:31:23 <Jeanne_> Hang on somnath, to you in a moment 16:31:31 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'm John Ericson.Done lost of project management related to linking govbt data 16:31:32 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov 16:31:59 <sandro> somnath, are you only on IRC, or are you on the phone, too? 16:32:00 <PhilA> related to our LOGD portal, int giovt search application (has 500K+ data sets on it) plus other things we've done 16:32:27 <PhilA> olyerickson: Also in the GLD WG with George T and bhyland 16:32:38 <PhilA> ... go back to digital rights management from mid 90s 16:32:53 <somnath> on irc only 16:32:54 <PhilA> ... persistent interest in Web infratsture supporting rights in differnet perspectives 16:33:11 <PhilA> ... wants to attach provenance data 16:33:34 <PhilA> ... how do we improve the infrastructure to do participator government 16:33:44 <PhilA> Ack somnath 16:33:48 <PhilA> Somnath NOW 16:33:55 <Jeanne_> Somnath--did you have a question? 16:34:42 <somnath> Not right now but can share Govt of India E-Gov roll out experience and its challenges 16:34:55 <Jeanne_> Perfect! Hadley will be leading that session! 16:35:06 <PhilA> sandro: Hi 16:35:21 <PhilA> I'm normally the Team Contact but not able to travel 16:35:45 <PhilA> sandro: interests and background in linked data, done it for years. In GLD where I'm Team Contact too 16:36:04 <Paola> can you hear me 16:36:05 <PhilA> Paola: Hi I'm Paola di Milo 16:36:07 <PhilA> No 16:36:08 <Paola> muted 16:36:10 <PhilA> we can't hear you 16:36:20 <PhilA> I just guessed that what you;d say 16:36:35 <PhilA> Paola: I'm in the UK. I know a few of you 16:36:42 <PhilA> ... interested in systems, social systems 16:36:49 <PhilA> ... been looking at infrastructure 16:37:10 <PhilA> ... just come back from conf. in Germany launching a new institute in this area 16:37:26 <HadleyBeeman> My apologies, Paola— which org are you working with? 16:37:50 <PhilA> bhyland: Hi, I'm Bernadette Hyland. Have been working in linked data since about 2007 with LoC 16:37:53 <Zakim> + +1.847.699.aabb 16:37:57 <PhilA> ... work with gov primnting office 16:38:10 <PhilA> ... docs created by Congress go to 1200 libraries around the country and so on. 16:38:21 <PhilA> ... currently work with US EPA 16:38:28 <Paola> HadleyL I am with university of strathclyde for another couple of months til my contract finishes, but work freelance and have started own independent research institution ISTCS.org 16:38:43 <bhyland> www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter 16:38:46 <PhilA> ... work with George Thomas on the GLD WG 16:38:53 <HadleyBeeman> Paola Brilliant, thanks! :) I'm sorry we haven't run into each other in the UK. 16:39:05 <PhilA> bhyland: we have a 2 year charter. 39 members. >50% are non-US 16:39:20 <Paola> Hadley: I think we may have met briefly at OpenGov Camp in London 2010, I remember your voice 16:39:46 <PhilA> bhyland: Just back from Warsaw. Sorry I can't be in Santa Clara 16:40:00 <HadleyBeeman> Oh good, Paola. I'm sorry I didn't attach my memory of your face to your voice. :) 16:41:19 <PhilA> Kevin: I'm Kevin, in Chicago. Virtual world provider. I follow data.gov and support the work very much 16:41:29 <PhilA> somnath - can you introduce yourself? 16:41:30 <Jeanne_> Somnath, can you introduce yourself? 16:42:56 <Jeanne_> Kevin provides and works with 3D immersive virtual worlds (like Second Life, but many others) 16:43:06 <Jeanne_> He provides training and other scenarios 16:43:32 <PhilA> Jeanne_: Topic: how the meeting is going to work 16:43:42 <PhilA> Jeanne_: I want to capture people's ideas as they come in. 16:43:44 <PhilA> PhilA has left #egov 16:43:50 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov 16:43:57 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #egov 16:44:14 <PhilA> Gha! Shut my browser by mistake 16:44:17 <dmcallis> +1 on "what do we want to do?" 16:44:31 <olyerickson> Jeanne: Want to allow for braiinstorming, want to discuss things we want to do 16:44:42 <PhilA> Jeanne_: I want to do a couple of things in the room and then try and recreate those on the phone 16:44:48 <olyerickson> ... write down thoughts on blue-colored cards 16:45:44 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov 16:45:46 <PhilA> Jeanne_: If you're on the phone/IRC - can you please use the IRC to post notes to the meeting 16:46:13 <bhyland> How about BLUE CARD: 16:46:14 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Especially where those thoughts are tangential or off-topic (to not disrupt the conversation), put them on the wall to be collected later. 16:46:21 <PhilA> ... use all caps "CARD" and then write your idea 16:46:35 <PhilA> ... as in CARD: I'd like to talk about... 16:46:45 <bhyland> Does Jeanne plan to use different color cards? Or just blue? 16:47:33 <PhilA> PhilA: I have a yellow card 16:47:43 <PhilA> ... and I can see pink ones too 16:47:44 <bhyland> got it. 16:47:53 <bhyland> CARD it is. 16:51:34 <PhilA> PhilA: My slides are at http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/phila/intro.html#(1) 16:56:40 <PhilA> http://philarcher.org/diary/2011/20yearsofmlarchives/ 16:57:14 <bhyland> That is great Phil - cool. 16:58:16 <PhilA> Jeanne_: This group was chartered first in 2008 16:58:47 <PhilA> dmcallis: when this group first formed, it was to identify how the Web can be used to make the work of govts more tranbsparent 16:59:02 <PhilA> ... how to we get govts to do this and how do we get citizens to respond 16:59:07 <PhilA> ... had a very active group 16:59:22 <PhilA> dmcallis: Linked deata was identified as being very important 16:59:48 <PhilA> dmcallis: there was a doc in June 2009 ? that talked about what needed to be done 17:00:09 <PhilA> ... originally talked about documents, social media, AV approaches 17:00:30 <olyerickson> Original W3G eGov charter (2009-2010) here: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/eGov/ig-charter 17:01:17 <gdick> gdick has joined #eGov 17:01:18 <PhilA> Jeanne_: you tried to avoid figuring out the one perfect solution... 17:02:01 <PhilA> dmcallis: I do work for Adobe ,-) the first set of docs said "we need docs to be able to be repurposed like PDF" - I had to take that out! 17:02:14 <PhilA> dmcallis: there were other things, like DRM etc 17:02:27 <PhilA> ... huge issues around suing RDF, Dublin Core 17:02:36 <PhilA> ... need to be careful not to condemn a technology 17:02:56 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: we have a lot of trouble in UK with govt data published as Jpegs 17:03:20 <PhilA> dmcallis: most of the problems 3200-1 and 2 owns PDF, not Adobe 17:03:33 <olyerickson> q+ 17:03:41 <PhilA> ... we should use the most appropriate tech 17:03:58 <PhilA> dmcallis: that was a big part of the first round. people saying "you should never use..." 17:04:00 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 17:04:09 <PhilA> olyerickson: I can only imagine the anguish you went through 17:04:44 <PhilA> olyerickson: how do we avoid boiling the ocean. Focussing on the problems - not imagine problems that are projections of how technologies can be used 17:05:00 <PhilA> ... current existence of the GLD WG is an example of your success. What else can we do 17:05:14 <bhyland> Clarification re: PDF - "PDF is an international standard, PDF 1.7 (ISO 32000-1)" 17:05:17 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov 17:05:50 <PhilA> dmcallis: the charter 1 - charter 2 cycle, we identified that we need to look at how we represent, say, a speech - but that's not fair a representation 17:06:03 <PhilA> ... social media now use soc media as a principal comm method 17:06:35 <PhilA> ... within this body, we represent what we think the citizens can best use 17:07:05 <PhilA> ... does the average person care that they can link real estate records to weather records. Some people do of course, but most don't and how do we connect those two? 17:07:36 <PhilA> ... LD became important because it's how you expose data. Risk is that it goes too far, i..e. takes commnets out of context 17:07:58 <PhilA> ... one of my topics is how what we do can represent the communities the gov is trying to reach 17:08:21 <PhilA> sandro: I didn't join until the point at which the 2nd charter was being worked ojn 17:08:31 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes 17:08:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-minutes.html PhilA 17:08:37 <dmcallis> the original doc is http://www.w3.org/TR/egov-improving/ 17:09:00 <PhilA> Jeanne_: This group was re-chartered in June of this year. After the beginings of the GLD WG 17:09:14 <PhilA> ... that's going really fast and making progress 17:09:38 <PhilA> ... a lot of the conversations that we were having in the IG became non-conversations as the GLD WG was taking it on 17:09:52 <PhilA> ... therefore our group can work without singling out a tech or a solution 17:10:03 <PhilA> ... we had a variety of open discussions 17:10:10 <PhilA> ... we can make statements about things 17:10:21 <PhilA> ... we can partner with WGs if needs be 17:10:51 <PhilA> ... we want to move beyond the technologies. We have technologists, elected people, practictioners, academics 17:11:12 <PhilA> ... and we have folk from otehr standards bodies 17:11:26 <PhilA> Kevin: we have just recently had our Project Stargate 17:11:42 <PhilA> ... a trans communication between virutal worlds 17:11:56 <PhilA> ... new standards for networking and ?? 17:12:22 <PhilA> ... for linking identities - we have new ways of doing that. Demos available from IEEE at Kevin 17:12:29 <dmcallis> I recall a project stargate from US gov on psychic phenom 17:12:35 <PhilA> Present+ Jeff Jaffe 17:12:57 <Jeanne_> That's Kevin Simkins talking with IEEE standards on virtual worlds 17:13:16 <PhilA> present+ Kevin Simkins 17:14:14 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'll provoke the soc media piece this afternoon 17:14:21 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: I'll scribe that then 17:14:48 <PhilA> olyerickson: It would be great of Kevin could lead that but, by remote, can you be here? 17:15:32 <Jeanne_> CARD : Be sure to look broadly at social media in the discussion later today 17:16:13 <HadleyBeeman> CARD : can we discuss licensing in the social media discussion too? We have groups in UK gov who default to "All rights reserved" (erroneously) when publishing content on social networks. 17:16:57 <PhilA> Jeanne_: we have the folk that turn up to our meetings, we have the mailing list and we have the linkedin Group 17:17:05 <PhilA> Jeanne_: I'm approving 20 people a week 17:17:41 <Jeanne_> CARD : Collect the resources of everyone's social media network 17:17:41 <PhilA> W3C linkedIn group is at http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1800648&trk=myg_ugrp_ovr 17:18:08 <PhilA> Jeanne_: we all have some sort of social media presence eithger personally or professionally (or both) 17:18:26 <PhilA> Jeanne_: we should use that to reach new people 17:19:48 <PhilA> Jeanne_: Want to come out of these 2 days with a set of actions. 17:19:57 <PhilA> ... want to be able to use our wiki etc 17:20:04 <PhilA> ... aggressively 17:20:09 <PhilA> dmcallis: +1 17:20:59 <PhilA> Jeanne_: Let's go to the phone 17:21:16 <bhyland> No comments from me 17:21:16 <olyerickson> "here here, here..." 17:21:17 <PhilA> ... do you have any thoughts on the previous group, interaction with W3C, currente intent and charter? 17:21:25 <olyerickson> -1 to hmmming to vote 17:21:27 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the phone? 17:21:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Paola, tpac, bhyland, +1.847.699.aabb 17:21:32 <PhilA> bhyland? Paola? 17:21:39 <bhyland> Nothing more to add. 17:21:43 <dmcallis> I would like to see a discussion towards the end on what other sub groups are required 17:21:54 <olyerickson> Could "+1.847.699.aabb" please identify? 17:22:12 <Jeanne_> CARD : Dave McAllister: I would like to see a discussion towards the end on what other sub groups are required 17:22:20 <Paola> sorry was that a q 17:22:20 <bhyland> I had input into the eGov IG & GLD WG charters :-) 17:22:42 <PhilA> zakim, aabb is Kevin Simkins 17:22:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb is Kevin Simkins', PhilA 17:22:44 <Paola> nothing to add, thanks 17:22:50 <olyerickson> q? 17:23:12 <PhilA> zakim, aabb is Kevin Simkins 17:23:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb is Kevin Simkins', PhilA 17:24:03 <PhilA> Accessibility and social media switching around. 17:24:16 <PhilA> so we'll so accessibility this afternoon and soc media tomorrow morning 17:25:05 <olyerickson> +1 to break 17:25:33 <dmcallis> +1 break 17:25:51 <PhilA> Jeanne_: Break until 10:45 17:25:52 <Paola> thank you scribe 17:26:23 <Paola> gave a nice break you lucky people in California, catcha later 17:26:24 <Zakim> -Kevin_Simkins 17:26:29 <sandro> topic: Coffee Break 17:26:31 <Zakim> -bhyland 17:26:40 <Zakim> -Paola 17:27:21 <Zakim> -Sandro 17:27:55 <Paola> zakim, how do I ping people in private message mode on this system 17:27:55 <Zakim> I don't understand you, Paola 17:29:08 <sandro> Paola, on irc it's usually "/msg sandro this is private to sandro" but it depends on your IRC client. 17:41:09 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 17:44:02 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov 17:44:13 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov 17:44:54 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #egov 17:45:02 <Zakim> +bhyland 17:47:22 <harlanyu_> harlanyu_ has joined #egov 17:47:55 <Zakim> +Kevin_Simkins 17:48:59 <Zakim> +Sandro 17:49:04 <davemc> davemc has joined #egov 17:49:13 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #egov 17:52:05 <PhilA> scribe: HadleyBeeman 17:52:06 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #egov 17:52:50 <Jeanne_> Shall we reconvene? 17:52:53 <PhilA> Web client is available through http://irc.w3.org/ 17:53:16 <olyerickson> zaim, did you have a nice break? 17:53:26 <olyerickson> s/zaim/zakim/ 17:53:45 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: Web client for IRC is often available when other clients can't get through the right ports 17:54:14 <HadleyBeeman> Topic: Reports from the Open Government Data Camp (OGDCamp) 17:54:34 <Jeanne_> Open Knowledge Foundation: http://vimeo.com/21711338 17:54:58 <Jeanne_> European Commissioner VP Kroes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gBUpUD4l1Wo 17:55:18 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Introducing the event, two weeks ago in Warsaw. Keynotes from the Open Knowledge Foundation and the Nellie Kroes, European Commissioner for Digital 17:55:47 <HadleyBeeman> … Our conversation: the strategic directions for government open data that we know about, and share those. (Later session will be on specific implementations) 17:56:26 <jkiss> jkiss has joined #egov 17:56:42 <HadleyBeeman> … In the US, there is a focus on benefits of open data. Past examples (GPS, weather data), current examples we can infer (health), and future possibilities. Innovation leads to economic growth and jobs. 17:57:22 <HadleyBeeman> … Also, it promotes transparency. Makes the Freedom of Information process less complicated, and required less. 17:58:29 <olyerickson> CARD : How do "FOI" policies/practices vary in regions outside USA? 17:58:29 <HadleyBeeman> … There is a lot of technology that falls from those directions. Open linked data, API catalogues, ability to aggregate data and cross-correlate it (esp from different agencies). 17:58:47 <Paola> Paola has joined #egov 17:59:01 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: give me a min- the EC have just published a review of it in 80 countries 17:59:19 <Jeanne_> Hadley: From the UK, our open data is underpinned by three main objectives: 17:59:26 <Jeanne_> 1) relationship between citizen and government 17:59:38 <Jeanne_> 2) better use of government resources and data and cost efficiencies 17:59:51 <Jeanne_> 3) potential for innovation and efficiencies in the public sector 18:00:05 <Jeanne_> Allows goverrnment to be a more efficient user and provider of data 18:00:22 <Jeanne_> Phil Archer: We had a recent switch of government 18:00:27 <Jeanne_> and open data survived 18:00:36 <olyerickson> [fyi] Wikipedia summary of "FOI" policies for 85+ countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_information_legislation 18:01:40 <Jeanne_> We have a now right wing government and now they are promoting not just economics but transparency as well 18:01:47 <Jeanne_> Thanks John 18:02:02 <Jeanne_> So the question is what happens when data is leaked vs. made open? 18:02:34 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: there is a fine line between publishing and leaking data. 18:02:34 <olyerickson> [fyi] RE EU FOI summaries, see also http://www.statewatch.org/foi/foi.htm 18:02:49 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: provenance of leaked data is also of question 18:03:21 <HadleyBeeman> The world's FOIs at a glance : http://epsiplatform.eu/content/worlds-foias-glance 18:04:19 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: Q: when data.gov.uk first went online, it was data-consumer driven. Process by which users could request data (less formally that FOIA requests). Provided guidance for data managers. 18:04:34 <HadleyBeeman> … how has that played out over the last 18 months? 18:04:56 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: FOI is still a big part of open data. 18:05:11 <PhilA> ... scalability is an issue, the data.gov.uk is a very small team 18:05:22 <PhilA> ... a big problem is a vocabulary mismatch 18:05:44 <PhilA> ... e.g. Commissioning data in the NHS. You may not know that magic term 18:06:02 <PhilA> ... so my team (linkedgov) is working to make those bridges 18:06:10 <PhilA> ... translating gov speak into natural language 18:06:35 <PhilA> ... we;re facing a huge challenge of having a huge possible data pool and limited funds 18:06:47 <PhilA> ... people don't know what's possible 18:06:53 <PhilA> ... don't know what question to ask 18:07:02 <Jeanne_> CARD : Several people have asked for the collection of use cases (stories, benefits, outcomes) around open data 18:07:46 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: for those on the phone/IRC, any thoughts from your own governments or experiences? 18:08:12 <Paola> well, it would help if the data was structured /modelled properly before being encoded/linked 18:08:16 <PhilA> zakim, who is here? 18:08:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, bhyland, Kevin_Simkins, Sandro 18:08:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see Paola, jkiss, Jeanne_, MoZ, davemc, harlanyu_, PhilA, yosuke, olyerickson, HadleyBeeman, gdick, bhyland, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, edsu, trackbot, sandro 18:08:30 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: In the USA, we're fortunate to have executive levels of support for open data. There are a number of senior managers in gov who want to see this work. 18:08:43 <Paola> its the data structures that make the data unusable/expensive 18:08:54 <HadleyBeeman> … In terms of empowering the people who are data curators and stewards: we have work left to do. Can't all be done by the W3C 18:09:40 <HadleyBeeman> … We can learn from other governments who are scoping budgets and concrete deliverables. It can be difficult to do with only once-a-month calls. 18:10:05 <HadleyBeeman> … Am I isolated in that observation, or have others found it as well? 18:10:18 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: observers are encouraged to participate 18:11:19 <Paola> have seen two issues with gov data: completely missing, data (the law does not seem to specify what record should be kept, so its discretionary, and bodies are finding ways around saying 'we do nto store thsi info' when its not convenient 18:11:42 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: Frequency of meeting is difficult; we get more momentum when we're face-to-face, and it can die down between meetings. 18:12:07 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Yes, we want to leave this meeting with clear actions to drive a change in our behaviour. 18:12:11 <Paola> the other issue is datasets which are not well formed/categorized, so that searching is a highly specialised task that required expensive skills 18:12:30 <Paola> sorry I am not on the phone but I can get o the phone if that helps 18:12:39 <olyerickson> +1 Paola; it goes even further w.r.t. proposed changes to e.g. US FOI policies that might enable administration to claim requested data doesn't exist when indeed it does 18:12:54 <HadleyBeeman> … We may decide to meet at a different frequency; we should follow what the group wants/needs. 18:13:13 <Paola> yes olyerickson I have heard 18:14:08 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: Specifically, do any others find strong leadership support, but a vacuum between the people who curate the data (budget, existing ways of working) etc? 18:14:10 <HadleyBeeman> q+ 18:14:34 <olyerickson> q+ 18:14:41 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman 18:14:48 <Jeanne_> Hadley: We've found something similar in the UK 18:14:57 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: As you've identified Bernadette, it's a new way of working 18:15:04 <Jeanne_> Hadley: It's a new way of working and a new relationship outside of your organization 18:15:10 <gdick> me/ odd aside. In US, Census Regs refer to Citizens, FOIA to Persons 18:15:12 <PhilA> ... most data teams are being told "you must publish this stuff" and the team is already overloaded 18:15:22 <PhilA> ... the team doesn't see any feedback 18:15:23 <Jeanne_> Hadley: It's hard on top of an already committed organization and it's just one more responsibility 18:15:24 <Paola> so the priority imho is: work with governments to develop adopt best practice, what works best (cost effectiveness is: mandate with legislation for public authoritities to proactively publish datasets which have been standardized that is make compliant with privacy law, then encoded 18:15:26 <PhilA> ... it's just one more thing to do 18:15:51 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: so we're trying to build a tool that makes it easy for the publishers to see the benefit of what they're doing 18:16:05 <olyerickson> @Paola I think part of this should be brought up during Evangelism/Education discussion tomorrow 18:16:07 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: Agreed, this won't take off until people are getting something back from it (in government) 18:16:40 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: Within an agency/authority, I think about how this will help them being more efficient. Most of them have trouble getting info from within their own organisation. 18:16:40 <Paola> you do that Olyer please, I may not be around, may post a quick note to list for you to refer to 18:17:00 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: Ex: most people get info about their own org from the external website, not internal resources. 18:17:22 <Paola> bhyland: true 18:17:23 <olyerickson> q? 18:17:36 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: How do we make this not just another thing on an already overburdened civil servant's plate? 18:17:58 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 18:17:59 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: It would be great if this group could make progress on that. 18:18:13 <davemc> It seems like we talking about the "marketing" of acceptance. 18:18:18 <kevinsimkins> kevinsimkins has joined #egov 18:18:28 <neeta> neeta has joined #egov 18:18:29 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: Paola and I have been talking about this with regard to evangelism and education (tabled for tomorrow). 18:18:45 <davemc> we should consider the gamification studies on this, e.g SAPS (Status Achievement, Power, Stuff) 18:19:53 <HadleyBeeman> … Much of this have been public/private/academic partnerships. Contact that we (RPI) have had with other govs has been around "Help us! We see what's happening in the UK — prime minister's office, Talis, University of Southampton… We see in the US 3 Round Stones, White House, RPI, etc… Help us figure this out. We recognise it's not just us, but we don't have the knowledge/experience/connections." 18:19:57 <kevinsimkins_> kevinsimkins_ has joined #egov 18:20:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 18:20:29 <Jeanne_> I like the idea of building a government e-ecosystem 18:20:49 <HadleyBeeman> … It's about building the ecosystem. 18:20:50 <HadleyBeeman> q+ 18:21:06 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman 18:21:11 <bhyland> John: Gov't/private partnerships is where we see progress. Building the eco-system is what we need to do better. You have to go as a professsional developer/data wrangler, academic, policy people and cross pollinate. 18:21:22 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: One of the 1st things I did at Linked Gov was to build a map of the people involved 18:21:37 <PhilA> ... wanted to show what people got out which, we hope, is more than they put in 18:21:52 <PhilA> ... challenge is to show that their job will be easier if they publish the data 18:22:01 <bhyland> q+ 18:22:07 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 18:22:28 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_ it's hard to get people motivated when budget cuts are so dramatic. Now, collection is even in jeopardy. 18:22:54 <olyerickson> +1 to "map of people involved"; I think this is partly the objective of the Community Directory 18:23:05 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: Summary of the points here: we are trying to work with 2 distinct constituencies: people who collect the data, 18:23:31 <PhilA> q+ 18:23:37 <HadleyBeeman> …and people who use the data. If we try to lump them together, then we will fail. If we say "the government should do <blah>," it won't work. 18:23:54 <olyerickson> No single formula; better, "templates for success" 18:24:09 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Multiple audiences here. Government is its own audience, and then there are externals as well. 18:25:17 <PhilA> ack bhyland 18:25:20 <HadleyBeeman> … What has been enchanting is going to an agency and saying "You opened your data, had a hackathon, and have three new apps on it. That's cool. And it has real-world relevance" 18:25:34 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: +1 to davemc's comment segmenting the constituencies here. 18:25:54 <HadleyBeeman> … to Jeanne_, appreciate the point that it's hard to motivate people (who may be concerned about being furloughed). 18:26:19 <HadleyBeeman> … which creates an ethos of inaction 18:27:17 <HadleyBeeman> … There are many approaches which can help. We show people their data as linked data, show them an application that mimics an architecture that costs $10m+ but is available for 10% of the cost 18:28:08 <davemc> q+ 18:28:15 <HadleyBeeman> … It's a tough time to be selling a new way of doing something, but there are still people who want to make a difference. Unless they get support for their managers though, and public exposure at conferences, then we're going to have a problem. 18:28:47 <davemc> q- 18:28:49 <olyerickson> ack PhilA 18:28:55 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: +1 to the comment re showing about showing people being asked to do the extra work that the benefit is to them as individuals. 18:29:04 <davemc> CARD : Should we have a task force on the business cases? 18:29:28 <davemc> q+ 18:29:32 <olyerickson> q+ 18:29:35 <HadleyBeeman> … Personally, I get hacked off with constant competitions… It exploits developers. At some point, we will need to pay developers to build really good tools. 18:29:58 <Paola> Paola has joined #EGOV 18:30:09 <davemc> q- 18:30:33 <bhyland> +1 PhilA, I completely agree. Hackathons are great for some notariety and for the agency / company sponsoring them … but they are 1 of about 20 different tools in the "tool kit" yet they are treated as the *only* tool at time. 18:30:42 <Paola> sorry havent learned how to get in the speaker q, do I just type q+ 18:30:44 <chsiao> chsiao has joined #egov 18:30:57 <Paola> let me try 18:30:58 <olyerickson> @Paola yes 18:31:01 <davemc> yes, type q then plus 18:31:04 <Paola> q+ 18:31:32 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: A lot of government apps tend to look alike. Ex: our Health 2.0 initiative (non-gov entity), they use the challenge as a proving ground to find partners to work with for a long time. 18:31:51 <Paola> how do I know when its my turn? is that when the handle turns red? 18:32:30 <davemc> Again, there are lessons that we could tap, "status" "open source" development. While we do need to professionalize interfaces, we also do need to allow this to grow organically 18:32:31 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 18:32:39 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: How do we strike a balance between bringing in new ideas and innovations against the concerns around exploiting developers? 18:33:12 <Paola> thanks bhyland, so basically now that I am in the queue, I can say what I got to say and it will be on record right? 18:33:32 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: 24hr programming contests force a certain kind of visualisation or mash-up into existence that one may not have thought of before. Also, emphasises the fact that creating apps can be like blogging. Short amount of time, low overhead. 18:34:03 <davemc> It's the continuation of these mash ups that need to be considered. 18:34:29 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: We've seen it with Ushahidi (from earthquake in Haiti), among others. We need to put a spotlight on these mechanisms. These hackathons have a role. 18:34:33 <HadleyBeeman> q+ 18:34:59 <davemc> q+ 18:35:09 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: forces the developer community to learn new things in a hurry as well 18:35:18 <HadleyBeeman> ack Paola 18:35:22 <bhyland> s/Paolo/Paola 18:35:30 <HadleyBeeman> Paola, did you have a comment? 18:35:49 <HadleyBeeman> s/Paolo/Paola 18:36:06 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman 18:36:51 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: I'm finding a community around Rewired State http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=rewired%2Bstate&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Frewiredstate.org%2F&ei=vOquTqaVOKGQiALCopTzCg&usg=AFQjCNGdDKABcYAbUjEwMe4SEUoKJGlkhw 18:37:23 <PhilA> I meant http://rewiredstate.org/ 18:37:38 <PhilA> ack dm 18:38:08 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman: we've had trouble with developers feeling burnt out, and focusing on accountability stuff or visualisations. Harder to motivate them to build products and businesses (they've developed habits) 18:38:29 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: apps don't continue past the event. We need to find ways for them to become self-sustaining. 18:38:36 <bhyland> Davemc: Hackathons are great. But how do we make them self-sustaining? How do we keep up the momentum? 18:38:55 <olyerickson> +1 *great* point about sustainability of hackathon artifacts/learninga/outcomes 18:39:06 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: a sub-task-force task: why should a company choose to do this? Why should a company choose to do this? We're missing the ongoing implementation. 18:39:12 <bhyland> +1 Davemc 18:39:19 <davemc> q- 18:40:02 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: NASA have done a lot of challenges. Just had a Green Flight challenge (fuel efficient plane) for $1.3m prize. winner: moved 200 miles for 0.5 gallons of gas per person. 18:40:14 <davemc> green flight == "pedal faster" 18:40:45 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: NASA's international space apps challenge is coming. Now: a call for what kind of data people would want to use. 18:40:51 <bhyland> The issue of how to do sustainable "Envisioning" (not my word) that is based on open data + action of producing useful application + keeping up momentum to fund actual deployment + announcement. 18:42:08 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: NASA doesn't run their events. Partnered with Google and Microsoft for Random Hacks of Kindness. Helps with the sustainability. 18:42:12 <olyerickson> [fyi] Obama's Open Data Initiative statement (Sep 2011) http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/09/22/open-government-action-plan-innovators 18:42:12 <bhyland> CARD : How to make open data + apps sustainable. How can we provide guidance that is peer-reviewed and properly advertised on the Web, possibly even coming from some standards body or hub site? 18:42:59 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: We only have a challenge around a specific opportunity or mission challenge that we don't know how to solve. Ex: descent of a vehicle onto Mars. 18:43:01 <Paola> sorry was away for a minute, will make a comment on the list 18:43:36 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: Interesting: it combines open innovation, pinned to workflow process within NASA. 18:44:40 <Zakim> +sandro.a 18:44:57 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: We've taken the health community on Data.gov a different way. Last year: any good idea is a great idea, this year: need a business model to progress. 18:45:48 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: This year we had 50 apps progress. Amazing for the community. 18:47:16 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: they were assessed by a panel of industry people. Those companies do it because it's in their interest (economic gain) 18:47:24 <olyerickson> +1 to raising the bar on "good idea" including (sustainable) business model, not simply coolness 18:47:42 <Zakim> + +1.703.992.aacc 18:47:47 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: we should communicate these successes more, promote them. 18:47:48 <PhilA> +1 to what olyerickson was saying +1 to 18:48:23 <olyerickson> +1.703.992.aacc please identify 18:48:39 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: we (W3C) sometimes overegg things, talk about them before they're ready. 18:49:11 <Jeanne_> Event is the Health Data Initiative: http://www.iom.edu/Activities/PublicHealth/HealthData/2011-JUN-09.aspx 18:49:38 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: these projects must be production ready (servers can't fall over due to demand, for example) 18:49:43 <Zakim> - +1.703.992.aacc 18:50:10 <Zakim> + +1.703.992.aadd 18:50:14 <Paola> overegg _lol never heard that expression before, 18:50:46 <HadleyBeeman> davemc: How do you recognise the people who have done this work? Like Linux in 1995 paid for in figo dollars. Sustain that status. 18:50:47 <HadleyBeeman> +q 18:51:03 <olyerickson> q+ 18:51:05 <Cory-c> Cory-c has joined #egov 18:51:14 <bhyland> Davemc: People are wired for status. How do we recognize individuals & make it worth their time? 18:51:36 <HadleyBeeman> ack me 18:51:51 <bhyland> +1 Davemc 18:52:04 <HadleyBeeman> Hadleybeeman: it's wrapped in with making this is the self-interest of the publishers and developers involved. 18:52:21 <PhilA> zakim, aadd is Cory-c 18:52:21 <Zakim> +Cory-c; got it 18:52:28 <HadleyBeeman> davemc: Another barometer: how many of these apps ever reach a version 2? That says a lot. 18:53:15 <PhilA> q+ 18:53:21 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 18:54:08 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: Developers sharing message: If we do things in a transparent way, other developers can jump into the ecosystem and participate. We see this happening with government data: the Guardian's data blog (may be the NY Times?) is good at communicating the methods behind visualisations. 18:54:43 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: We need to push back: have developers/journalists/visualisers provide provenance and sources for their data. 18:55:45 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson this helps encourage others to use the data, go to the source. 18:56:16 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: +1. If we don't put together best practices on this, this could backfire. 18:56:19 <Jeanne_> Winners of the Health Data Initiative: http://www.health2challenge.org/winners/ 18:56:30 <PhilA> An example of data visualisation with link to the source would be http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010 18:57:13 <PhilA> q- 18:58:45 <bhyland> CARD : What can be done to associated basic provenance info, even an authority & URL of source, of data in a mashup. John Erickson gave an example that he had to email some developers to find out where they pulled data from; Bernadette gave examples of mashups where data was just incorrect and there was no way to reach back to the developer and cite correct data. 18:58:58 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: This group might want to promote within W3C: a project I'm working on proposing for funding. That would make it easy for us to set up a working group that would set up a standardised API for correction. 18:59:07 <HadleyBeeman> q+ 18:59:30 <davemc> CARD : develop the persona of constituents 18:59:40 <Jeanne_> CARD : Should we consider helping to inform a standard API(s) that could be included to show how to correct the data? (via Phil) 18:59:46 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: Here's how you include in your web page or app "here's how you correct this data" 19:00:08 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: Input for the Provenance WG? 19:00:39 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: It would be useful if we could build a process around correcting data 19:00:44 <PhilA> ... there's noone in charge 19:00:57 <PhilA> ... there's no process for fixing it, never mind technologies 19:01:02 <bhyland> proposed URL: http://isanyoneincharge.gov 19:01:05 <PhilA> ... so there's stuff we could do there 19:02:22 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: answering Jeanne_ we can normally find who has published the data (as we're part of government) and when we contact them about data errors we get a wide range of responses 19:02:25 <olyerickson> Guardian example http://bit.ly/sJgArg is excellent w.r.t. data sources; better to also include e.g. dataviz toolkits (d3.js, etc?) 19:02:47 <olyerickson> q+ 19:02:53 <HadleyBeeman> ack me 19:03:25 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: we're trying to open each of those aspects to transparency. 1st: how many datasets each agency is publishing. 2nd: establish/streamline process for requesting new data and responding to the requester. 19:04:13 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: this builds accountability. We can't do it all at once, because the agencies may push back. They're what they can with their scarce resources. 19:04:15 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 19:04:27 <bhandspicker> bhandspicker has joined #egov 19:05:05 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: Assertions can be made about the data by third parties. 19:05:30 <davemc> +1 to Hadley 19:05:55 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: GLD working group: working on best practices for consuming data, provenance assertions. What do we do with crowdsourced assertions about existing data? 19:05:56 <davemc> q+ 19:06:28 <Zakim> +bhandspicker 19:06:42 <Jeanne_> Welcome Brian! 19:06:54 <HadleyBeeman> q+ 19:06:58 <bhyland> Olyerickson: discussed assertions on provenance of published data. At RPI, they are collecting data from 90 (?) governments worldwide and looking at how to make assertions about quality. 19:07:09 <PhilA> ack davemc 19:07:22 <Jeanne_> Dave: Reputation and trust are important to any data source 19:07:23 <bhandspicker> Going mute and stepping away from the computer...audio only for next hour... then fully engaged. 19:07:44 <olyerickson> DaveMc sums my comments up in three words: "reputation and trust" ;) 19:07:53 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: what's the reputation of data after it's gone through a game of Telephone? 19:08:01 <bhyland> Davemc: Discussed reputation & authority of published data. 19:08:05 <davemc> q- 19:08:08 <bhyland> q+ 19:08:42 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: in the USA, we still don't have a precise mechanism for feeding back on data. 19:08:44 <bhyland> zakim, who is speaking? 19:08:54 <Zakim> bhyland, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bhandspicker (12%), tpac (24%) 19:08:55 <davemc> CARD : sub force on reputation and trust 19:09:43 <olyerickson> q? 19:09:48 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman 19:10:06 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: Communication beyond provenance... 19:10:27 <PhilA> ... Some data someone was using didn't mind if it was off by 15%, other people may care more 19:10:32 <PhilA> ... context matters 19:10:43 <PhilA> Other thoughts on John's thoughts. 19:10:43 <davemc> +1 to PhilA on context 19:11:22 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: we've had big shifts in thoughts as social media has blown away the careful publication process with its checks and balances 19:11:36 <PhilA> davemc: It's reputation and trust 19:11:48 <bhyland> q? 19:12:02 <PhilA> ... there's a difference between publishing any old thing and checked data 19:12:12 <Zakim> -bhandspicker 19:12:54 <Zakim> +bhandspicker 19:13:16 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: certain datasets are unique and authoritative. The only source of this data. It may have errors, but it is the authority on that data. 19:14:40 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: there is an authority-down guidance (GLD WG recommendation). Bottom-up (input from the citizen/commercial company) would be interesting — we could have a reputation analyser. 19:14:50 <olyerickson> @bhyland your audio is quite soft... 19:16:06 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: GLD WG is pragmatic, US participants may feel a bit behind other nations. We're trying to focus on specific recommendations… do a lot with a little. 19:16:14 <olyerickson> +1 to "doing a lot with a little" 19:16:18 <davemc> reputation is something that ebay handles well... most others follow some mechanism based on that model, even if they don't say so 19:16:26 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to getting into/on with it, not stuck trying to make a mathematician happy. 19:16:29 <olyerickson> q+ 19:16:38 <PhilA> ack bhyland 19:16:47 <PhilA> q+ 19:16:55 <davemc> forget the math guys. make the statisticians hapy! 19:17:20 <HadleyBeeman> bhandspicker: I'm here (audio only) 19:17:28 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 19:17:44 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson +1 to bhyland 19:18:18 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: on schema.org: motivation was not to recreate the hard work of esablished standards bodies, but to create something that was simple and easy to use 19:18:45 <davemc> "no one expects the Schema Inquisition" 19:19:22 <bhyland> The Semantic Link Podcast that John is referring to with RV Guha from Google is good & worthwhile listening to, check out http://semanticweb.com/the-semantic-link-%E2%80%93-episode-11-october-2011_b23961 19:20:05 <bhyland> RV Guha is now chairing the independent effort to define schema.org 19:20:53 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: Recently invited to speak at something: "you're W3C, come tell us what's wrong with schema.org." My response: "Nothing. It's not W3C, but it's fine for what it is. Choose the tool that's right for you." 19:21:14 <PhilA> ack me 19:22:58 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_ (summing up this session): We've been trying to coordinate among groups from different organisations. Next session: there are 3 big events this month (OGDCamp, World Bank event, and this)… How can we progress before the next time we're face-to-face? 19:23:30 <bhyland> To Phil's point, schema.org is an approach to providing simplified guidance on highly useful vocabularies for webmasters who are marking up content. W3C has been very helpful in getting schema.org discussions to happen more transparently in the public on a W3C public mailing list, even though it is not a W3C initiative. 19:24:15 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: If we want to do these things (deliverables/projects), what partnerships do we need to form to make this happen? 19:24:41 <PhilA> Also worth noting that schema.org uses a W3C rec track standard, microdata, which is part of HTML5 19:24:57 <bhyland> right Phil, true. Thanks. 19:25:57 <PhilA> meeting adjourned for lunch. 19:26:23 <PhilA> Reconvene at 14:00 PDT 19:27:03 <Zakim> -bhandspicker 19:27:04 <Zakim> -bhyland 19:27:06 <HadleyBeeman> Adjourn for lunch 19:27:26 <Zakim> -sandro.a 19:27:54 <sandro> HadleyBeeman, PhilA I suggest doing minutes continuously 19:27:54 <Zakim> -Sandro 19:28:15 <HadleyBeeman> cheers, sandro 19:29:05 <PhilA> rrsagentm draft minutes 19:29:12 <PhilA> rrsagent. draft minutes 19:29:14 <kevinsimkins> Enjoy your lunsh. So long for now.. 19:29:19 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes 19:29:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-minutes.html PhilA 19:29:29 <sandro> PhilA, this group doesn't use RRSAgent Minutes, generally. 19:29:32 <jkiss> jkiss has joined #egov 19:29:40 <sandro> Although, I suppose it could. 19:30:04 <jkiss> jkiss has left #egov 19:30:06 <sandro> See http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-10-31 19:30:10 <kevinsimkins> Correction -- Enjoy your lunch. So long for now... 19:30:34 <Zakim> -Cory-c 19:32:11 <Zakim> -Kevin_Simkins 20:13:07 <Zakim> + +1.312.208.aaee 20:13:46 <Zakim> - +1.312.208.aaee 20:13:54 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov 20:16:17 <chsiao> chsiao has joined #egov 20:35:42 <Zakim> + +1.312.208.aaff 20:35:45 <Zakim> -tpac 20:35:47 <Zakim> +tpac 20:41:50 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #egov 20:46:38 <Zakim> - +1.312.208.aaff 20:52:09 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov 20:54:34 <davemc> davemc has joined #egov 20:55:25 <bhyland> When you're back, here is the blog post I wrote up as feedback to the Open Gov't Data camp, see http://3roundstones.com/2011/10/28/keeping-up-the-momentum-from-the-open-government-data-camp-2011/ 20:56:44 <olyerickson> @bhyland thanks 20:57:02 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 20:58:12 <Zakim> + +1.647.747.aagg 20:58:12 <sandro> close to starting again? 20:58:34 <HadleyBeeman> sandro, we're still waiting for Jeanne and a few others 21:00:23 <Zakim> +sandro 21:00:24 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #egov 21:00:37 <PhilA> zakim, who is here? 21:00:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, +1.647.747.aagg, sandro 21:00:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see PhilA, HadleyBeeman, davemc, olyerickson, MoZ, chsiao, tlr, bhandspicker, Cory-c, harlanyu_, gdick, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, edsu, trackbot, sandro 21:02:11 <josema> zakim, code? 21:02:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 346844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:firstname.lastname@example.org), josema 21:02:18 <PhilA> hi, if you're the one dialling in from 647 747 can you identify yourself please? Maybe you're in Toronto? 21:03:52 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov 21:04:42 <davemc> zakim, who is here 21:04:42 <Zakim> davemc, you need to end that query with '?' 21:04:47 <davemc> zakim, who is here? 21:04:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, +1.647.747.aagg, sandro 21:04:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see yosuke, PhilA, HadleyBeeman, davemc, olyerickson, MoZ, tlr, bhandspicker, Cory-c, harlanyu_, gdick, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, edsu, trackbot, sandro 21:04:57 <Zakim> +??P12 21:05:03 <josema> zakim, ??P12 is me 21:05:03 <Zakim> +josema; got it 21:05:29 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #egov 21:05:31 <olyerickson> TOPIC: Warsaw 21:05:31 <josema> zakim, mute me 21:05:31 <Zakim> josema should now be muted 21:06:02 <chsiao> chsiao has joined #egov 21:06:03 <Zakim> +Cory-c 21:06:14 <jkiss> jkiss has joined #egov 21:06:40 <olyerickson> ... community vast, everyone will to help each other 21:06:46 <olyerickson> ... "everyone was frustrated" 21:06:56 <olyerickson> .. see also @bhyland URL 21:06:56 <olyerickson> ... useful to learn what other govt's are doing 21:07:11 <olyerickson> ... 3 groups: 21:07:25 <olyerickson> 1. Developer group --- cool tools, what's going on, what data available 21:07:54 <Zakim> + +1.571.331.aahh 21:08:15 <olyerickson> 2. People "doing" ogd (cities, etc) 21:09:23 <olyerickson> interesting observation: epectation that govts would be sharing, thus needed to have policies in place (i.e. proactive) 21:09:28 <olyerickson> 3. People getting ready to do OGD 21:09:38 <olyerickson> different than US Data.gov which was interested in getting things done 21:09:51 <josema> zakim, unmute me 21:09:51 <Zakim> josema should no longer be muted 21:10:14 <olyerickson_2> olyerickson_2 has joined #egov 21:10:57 <Jeanne_> Josema: Was at Open Government Data Camp, and is seeing maturing in the field 21:11:32 <Jeanne_> Josema has started community of practice with the World Bank. The community is growing. Have been participating in EU and EC events, primarily. 21:12:11 <Jeanne_> ...Next step is not enough to just do something, but must be sustainable. 21:12:39 <Jeanne_> ...Companies that don't have to do anything with IT could have immense benefit from this data. 21:13:05 <PhilA> scribe: Jeanne_ 21:13:34 <Jeanne_> ...The community is maturing. A few years ago we needed to "boil the ocean" and now we "are already boiling the ocean". 21:13:35 <olyerickson_2> Zakim, who is on the phone? 21:13:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, +1.647.747.aagg, sandro, josema, Cory-c, +1.571.331.aahh 21:14:09 <davemc> davemc has joined #egov 21:14:09 <Jeanne_> Josema: There were two additional events besides the camp: Open Data in Developing Countries (an open space format/barcamp). 21:14:54 <Jeanne_> Trying to join two different communities with OpenAid (what countries they are funding) and locally sustainable initiatives in developing countries. 21:15:41 <Jeanne_> There were a lot of commonalities in the people working on various things. Looked at the building blocks for open data initiatives. 21:16:21 <josema> http://opengovernmentdata.okfnpad.org/open-development 21:16:24 <Jeanne_> Trying to understand what would be needed. Some concern from Kenyan Open Data Initiative to understand how to survive beyond launch. 21:17:15 <Jeanne_> Break outs: necessary building blocks for open data; standards for open data (IATA?); evidence of impact of these initiatives. 21:17:52 <Jeanne_> Concerns about the lack of formal metrics around these to show sustainable initiatives and learning. 21:18:45 <Jeanne_> Another satellite event on open identifiers for companies. Came up in UK around OpenCorporate to build a set of universal identifiers for companies there. 21:18:59 <PhilA> Josema is talking about http://opencorporates.com/ 21:19:07 <davemc> metrics are intriguing issues "If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" 21:19:35 <josema> http://wiki.okfn.org/OGDCamp_2011_Organizational_Identifiers_Workshop 21:19:51 <Zakim> -josema 21:20:04 <Jeanne_> The current identifiers are done by Dun and Bradstreet. 21:20:17 <josema> dropped? 21:20:22 <josema> redialing 21:20:25 <Jeanne_> People working in OpenAid have a similar problem. There is a format they have for describing companies. 21:20:26 <olyerickson_2> [fyi] getting beyond DUNS numbers, see also http://dotank.nyls.edu/orgpedia/ 21:20:36 <josema> zakim, code? 21:20:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 346844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:email@example.com), josema 21:20:37 <olyerickson_2> @josema yes apparently 21:20:51 <Zakim> +??P12 21:21:00 <josema> zakim, ??P12 is me 21:21:00 <Zakim> +josema; got it 21:21:58 <Jeanne_> There is a subset of this that is Orgpedia led by Jim Hendler and Beth Noveck. But this is trying to solve a much broader issue. 21:22:37 <PhilA> q+ 21:23:07 <josema> IATI for Open Aid -- http://iatistandard.org/ 21:23:12 <PhilA> q- 21:23:58 <olyerickson_2> ack PhilA 21:24:00 <gdick> me/ IATA = Airport Codes plausible but wrong 21:24:20 <Jeanne_> PhilA Trying to work on this with the Commission, Chris Taggert will be involved. 21:24:28 <Jeanne_> Josema: Chris said he was already in touch with them and trying to work together. 21:26:17 <Jeanne_> Makes sense to connect with the W3C. 21:26:41 <PhilA> Note to self - Josama talking about Open 311 21:26:59 <Zakim> -Cory-c 21:28:16 <davemc> jeanne discusses the desire to "link" to other groups 21:28:28 <PhilA> q+ 21:28:41 <davemc> Jeanne: How do we avoid the duplicative efforts of say, data catalogs 21:29:07 <Jeanne_> Josema: I don't have a good answer for how to best coordinate multiple group activities. 21:29:16 <Zakim> +bhandspicker 21:29:52 <Jeanne_> Josema: I will work through the Web Foundation to partner with as many people as possible. Will need specific expertise to do this and that. 21:30:22 <Jeanne_> Josema: Some will be specific issues in developing countries. For me, every one of them has a role to play. 21:31:15 <Jeanne_> Josema: For the World Bank, the target of that community is very different. They are targeting a special group of client governments and high-level policy makers. 21:31:32 <Jeanne_> Josema: This is different than the membership in OKN or W3C. 21:31:33 <PhilA> ack me 21:31:53 <davemc> as always, it comes down to what groups the projects are addressing 21:32:05 <Jeanne_> PhilA: There are a lot of people working on the same thing, which Chris Taggert in the UK is leading. 21:32:56 <Jeanne_> Andrew Stott is working on this project, too. But completely separately in Brussels, DGdigit is having people like me help to create this. 21:32:59 <Jeanne_> We do not need to create a whole new vocabulary and can use other people's terms. But the down thing... 21:34:02 <Jeanne_> is that whatever the project, such as working out tools for policy making, in whatever government, that there are slightly different agendas, paymasters, and time scales. 21:34:07 <josema> time schedule is also an issue for me wrt W3C 21:35:03 <Jeanne_> PhilA: I have to deliver by March, but the W3C doesn't work through that quickly. A year ago when we created the OGD group, a rep from NZ said that service could only be provided if the servers were resident in the country requesting the service. 21:35:35 <Jeanne_> PhilA: The electronic version of "published in NZ" was that the server was in NZ. 21:35:45 <josema> I know weel that sort of problem having faced it in an Open Data project, too 21:35:46 <Zakim> -josema 21:35:51 <josema> s/weel/Well 21:36:06 <Jeanne_> PhilA: Whatever you do don't define a name space that ends in a country code--other countries won't touch it. 21:36:06 <Jeanne_> Jason Kiss: That has now been modified and there is much more room for manuevering. 21:36:12 <josema> zakim, code? 21:36:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 346844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:firstname.lastname@example.org), josema 21:36:28 <Jeanne_> PhilA: Doing things at different time scales and agendas shows it's a complex problem. There are always going to be problems around the edges and not everything is perfect. 21:36:52 <Jeanne_> Hadley: Those personality bits are critical. 21:37:05 <Zakim> +??P12 21:37:08 <josema> zakim, ??P12 is me 21:37:08 <Zakim> +josema; got it 21:37:40 <Jeanne_> PhilA: If you were in a different place it would make a very different solution for that country. 21:37:41 <Jeanne_> Hadley: I often serve as a bridge translating between different groups working the problem. 21:38:41 <davemc> jeanne: we could perhaps coordinate between selected projects. Pick something we're interested in and focus on one 21:39:26 <davemc> Jeanne: We may feel comfortable with with long scale, but project team may not 21:39:54 <Jeanne_> Josema: I know some of the things I want to build and we could define which make sense for the group to work on. Some of the things I want to produce the World Bank wants 21:40:45 <Jeanne_> ...and others may be ones I need to work on with the W3C. 21:41:20 <Jeanne_> PhilA: So what would such a project look like? 21:41:25 <Jeanne_> Such as the Corporate identifiers. 21:41:39 <davemc> jeanne: I could imagine 1 group has the lead, and others would act as experts or peer reviewers 21:42:20 <davemc> Jeanne: we would (within W3C) invite others to preevnt limits inview 21:42:40 <davemc> Jeanne: or one group could handle code, another spec 21:42:42 <josema> zakim, mute me 21:42:42 <Zakim> josema should now be muted 21:43:34 <gdick> me/ suggest you look at Manufacturer Identification (MID) from US Customs. It's horrible and a good example on how not to ID 21:43:42 <Jeanne_> Hadley: Building a vocabulary or a common group of identifiers is hard because the corporate structure in each country is different. 21:44:10 <davemc> to gdick, but imagine changing it on thefly now 21:44:11 <Jeanne_> Hadley: Getting that "country" structure in the identifiers early would be important. 21:44:49 <gdick> me/ *shudders* 21:45:03 <Jeanne_> John: This could be as bad as when W3C got involved in DRM many years ago. One of the big reasons Orgpedia exists is that DUNS numbers are claimed as proprietary. 21:45:51 <Jeanne_> John: Unambiguous identifiers are claimed as intellectual property by a big corporation. They are so useful. 21:46:21 <Jeanne_> John: The data we have in Orgpedia is more like a DBpedia thing. Being able to mash it together with other data lets us do useful things. 21:46:35 <davemc> even when they aren't corporate, they may be consider at privacy risks, re; US SSN 21:47:11 <Jeanne_> John: I don't know what role W3C should play--perhaps like the DCAT work for information about corporate entities? 21:47:31 <Jeanne_> John: Extensible ways to get common identifiers--W3C should be more of a supporting role in this case, but also have those other entities participating in the W3C. 21:48:28 <Jeanne_> Hadley: The whole reason open corporate exists is that Companies House is a trading fund, which gets some money from the Treasury, and also generates revenue by selling data of companies it collects. 21:49:47 <Jeanne_> PhilA: We can help with hosting vocabularies. We are hosting the organization ontology on W3.org 21:49:49 <Jeanne_> Hadley: Power of the W3C may make it easier to have that conversation. 21:49:49 <Jeanne_> Hadley: Open Corporates may get better adoption in government areas as open data and open standards are being used. 21:50:04 <josema> hmmm… you might want to make a distinction between standards and non-standards track when considering potential new work 21:50:56 <Jeanne_> PhilA: There is no political affiliation, so that may be a good spot for W3C for hosting ontologies but not the data. 21:51:02 <Jeanne_> PhilA: There's no formality behind it. 21:51:14 <Jeanne_> PhilA: We can review work and publish "where they have met best practice" or "duplicated effort". 21:51:21 <josema> review is fine, this group did it before, in fact, in the middle of others' process so it serve them as input 21:51:33 <josema> s/serve/served 21:52:23 <Jeanne_> DaveMc: Be careful, it would have to have measurable, quantifiable evaluations or have a potential negative impact. 21:54:03 <Jeanne_> PhilA: The Web Foundation came about because W3C was pushing at the boundaries of what it is allowed to do. We have close cooperations among all three. 21:54:03 <Jeanne_> PhilA: if what we want to do doesn't fit, we will do what we can, but we can look at other options. 21:54:23 <josema> http://webscience.org/ 21:54:30 <Jeanne_> DaveMc: Specification vs. implementation--be careful of being a watchdog. 21:54:51 <HadleyBeeman> DaveMc: We stabilise specifications. 21:55:00 <Jeanne_> PhilA: Web science institute was created because of pushing the education research on socio-economic impacts. 21:55:13 <Jeanne_> DaveMc: We stabilize the work and infrastructure. 21:55:36 <josema> +1 to Dave and Hadley 21:55:54 <josema> zakim, who is here? 21:55:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, +1.647.747.aagg, sandro, +1.571.331.aahh, bhandspicker, josema (muted) 21:55:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see davemc, jkiss, chsiao, Jeanne_, PhilA, HadleyBeeman, MoZ, harlanyu_, gdick, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, edsu, trackbot, sandro 21:56:20 <Jeanne_> PhilA: The Foundation is about nation building. 21:56:56 <davemc> I shudder every time DRM is mentioned... 21:56:58 <Jeanne_> Hadley's catch is better: stabilize specifications. 21:57:03 <Jeanne_> PhilA: If what comes out of this group is the evolution of a new entity, that's okay. 21:57:43 <Jeanne_> John: In 2000-2001 when digital rights management came up, many people "knew" what needed to be done, but other voices said the social implications are huge. 21:57:43 <Jeanne_> John: From W3C perspective, we don't know how to fit this crazy world into this perspective. 21:59:25 <Jeanne_> John: W3C looked at creating and maturing standards and technologies--workshop showed that other stakeholders needed to talk more before W3C could proceed. 22:00:16 <davemc> So what I'm hearing is that we need to decide what problem(s) we are solving, nd for whom. And whether they see it as a problem 22:00:46 <Jeanne_> John: It's reasonable to ask the questions, but these groups may need to identify a task like common metadata to define corporate tasks. 22:02:11 <davemc> agenda addendum: naptime! 22:02:27 <Jeanne_> John: Having that brand associated with it attracts governments. 22:02:27 <Jeanne_> PhilA: DCAT is at an early draft now, but ADMS is being a more stable standard. 22:03:01 <Jeanne_> John: Our work is not to endorse DCAT but to endorse the model. A good thing to do to adopt a standard for description. 22:04:00 <Jeanne_> Bernard: Many governments are expecting something out of the eGov group. Should we be there? 22:04:12 <davemc> test 22:04:18 <Jeanne_> John: Kenya looked at the use of the DCAT standard and liked it, but if W3C had branded or endorsed it the government might have looked at it differently. 22:04:22 <Jeanne_> PhilA: There are lots of communities that do activities like mobile apps but are not W3C. But governments would like to have something to point to from legislation or elsewhere to reference. 22:04:46 <PhilA> present+ Bernard Gidon 22:04:59 <josema> agenda? 22:05:05 <josema> ah... 22:06:32 <josema> do you need anything else from me? getting late here 22:06:51 <Zakim> - +1.647.747.aagg 22:07:20 <davemc> Josema, everyone is distracted. will ask 22:07:26 <josema> please! 22:07:45 <davemc> Jeanne says you can go, Jose 22:07:47 <davemc> thanks 22:08:21 <josema> ack me 22:08:34 <davemc> Open Gov data discussion by Hadley 22:08:38 <Zakim> -josema 22:09:36 <davemc> Jeanne: recaps: developers who want to do stuff, people that want to share war stories, others who want to make sure the new scars are tolerable 22:09:49 <davemc> most people moving methodically on open data plans 22:10:34 <davemc> jeanne: was good to have elected reps there, and have them push/endorse. Exemplars are really useful 22:10:43 <josema> btw, if you want to take a look at what WF is up to wrt Open Data, an starting point can be the slides I used at the camp but I'm producing more documentation already): http://public.webfoundation.org/2011/10/20111003_WF_OGDCAMP_JA.pdf 22:11:14 <davemc> Jeanne: Hadley thought a lot was going on, but that we don't have enough structure to reorg 22:11:42 <josema> rrsagent, pointer? 22:11:42 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-irc#T22-11-42 22:11:52 <davemc> Jeanne: there were some depressing keynotes; some very definite fails 22:12:07 <josema> thanks for having me 22:12:08 <davemc> Jeanne: we need to bring the team together so we don't wither 22:13:50 <davemc> Bernadette: We've gotten here through a small and committed teams. As we go mainstream, the message may become diluted for free and open exchanges aren't preserved 22:14:18 <davemc> Bernadette: open data as publication may be considered threatening to existing corporations 22:15:02 <davemc> Bernadette: we need to tap the braintrust, and hype successes, while avoiding negative interests 22:16:01 <davemc> Bernadette: the open and transparent interests, though different approaches, including negative ones was good 22:17:26 <davemc> what? 22:17:44 <davemc> red room, chains, concrete, cold 22:18:09 <PhilA> zakim, who is here? 22:18:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, sandro, +1.571.331.aahh, bhandspicker 22:18:10 <davemc> hadley: on practices and policies. 22:18:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see davemc, jkiss, chsiao, PhilA, harlanyu_, gdick, Zakim, RRSAgent, edsu, trackbot, sandro 22:18:30 <davemc> slides are on the agenda page 22:19:11 <davemc> you're safe 22:19:23 <PhilA> present+ Virginie Galindo, Gemalto 22:19:38 <davemc> thanks for catching that Phil. Bad on names 22:19:53 <davemc> Hadley to discuss OPen Gov data in general, landscape 22:19:58 <chsiao> chingteng hsiao from academia sinica 22:20:14 <Jeanne> Jeanne has joined #egov 22:20:15 <PhilA> present+ chingteng hsiao 22:20:33 <Jeanne> Welcome to our new attendees and guests! 22:20:59 <PhilA> present+ Cheng Hung 22:21:36 <davemc> HAdley: types of data, UK categories : past data (historical), future data (forecasting), infrastructure (geo), real-time (weather) 22:22:02 <davemc> Hadley: talking about non-personally identifiable data 22:22:18 <davemc> Hadley: does this differ from working def? 22:23:02 <davemc> Hadley: vision sit within gov, devs choose from sets; individuals use apps to make life better 22:23:25 <davemc> bernard: I don't see flow. Hadley: that was intentianal 22:23:40 <PhilA> Hadley's slides are at http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:Open_data_egov_IG_slides.pdf 22:23:55 <davemc> +1 on PDF <grin> 22:24:45 <davemc> Hadley: it's hard to aggregate data from multiple sources. Think school data to housing prices 22:24:58 <davemc> Hadley: They aren't insumountable, just hard 22:25:27 <davemc> Hadley: Quality, reliability reputation trust all fall in 22:26:11 <davemc> Hadley: characters: publishers from many separate groups, Interpreter (explain what that really is) 22:27:02 <davemc> Hadley: characters: developers, build something from this data, and end users (who may not see raw data, but see some result 22:28:32 <davemc> John: what does user mean? Obvious use is end user of the result of the app, but developer is also an important user. Developers may have significant and gating requirements. 22:31:57 <davemc> John: wishes the world was closer to dev/end user. 22:32:29 <davemc> John: mashable apis are use, not so much raw data 22:33:05 <davemc> Hadley: would be useful to be able to deliver what each layer needs 22:33:44 <davemc> Hadley: in gov, most want closeness to their own data, related data and ability to extract meaningful information 22:34:01 <gdick> me/ Trick or Treat Time! er, um, I have previous commitments and must drop off. Check the public eGov IG board. I posted two web apps. Hadley and John might like them. 22:34:12 <davemc> Hadley: Currently, getting to the data can be hard. Still driven by personal netwrok 22:34:41 <davemc> Hadley: we emphasis the more they publish the better their own lives will be 22:34:57 <gdick> gdick has left #eGov 22:34:59 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #egov 22:36:03 <davemc> PhillA: asked about organograms 22:36:03 <Jeanne> Jeanne has joined #egov 22:36:40 <davemc> PhilA: data.gov.uk has that organogram data 22:37:02 <davemc> http://data.gov.uk/organogram/cabinet-office 22:37:49 <davemc> PhilA: nice example of data use in public space 22:38:18 <davemc> PhilA: shifting to slides 22:38:47 <davemc> PhilA: EU projects 22:39:02 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 22:39:13 <davemc> PhilA: Crossover: policy modelling tools. 22:39:52 <davemc> PhilA: build repository for egov. planning 3 workshops. 22:40:09 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov 22:40:19 <davemc> PhilA: ECEG 2012 reference 22:40:45 <davemc> PhilA: 1st workshop is on using the data 22:41:15 <davemc> PhilA: workshop to show what is being done, not creating more data 22:41:55 <davemc> PhilA: if IG wants to get involved in this space, this would be a point of focus 22:42:01 <Jeanne> CARD (via PhilA): No more papers, only instances of the use of the data. 22:42:28 <davemc> PhilA: millennium Institute in Dec in DC 22:42:41 <Zakim> - +1.571.331.aahh 22:43:13 <davemc> PhilA: final in brussels from Lisbon council, Mar 2013. 22:43:35 <davemc> PhilA: Brussels will be major focal point 22:44:06 <Jeanne> CARD : Coordinate with Crossover project for June 2012 (Barcelona) or final March 2013 (Lisbon). 22:44:18 <davemc> JOhn: how do we keep world in perspective 22:44:45 <davemc> Hadley : How do we focus on where we should/will be , not where we are now 22:45:05 <davemc> PhilA: Focus on 4 year out, deliver in two. Wide open proposals 22:45:48 <davemc> PhilA: Semic: http://semic.eu 22:46:18 <davemc> PhilA: semantic interoperability across European community 22:46:37 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov 22:46:40 <davemc> PhilA: This is a contracted project, PWC 22:47:07 <davemc> PhilA: developing ADMS (schema), looks similar to DCAT 22:47:46 <sandro> q+ to clarify what's happening with dcat 22:49:02 <davemc> John: May 2011, open knowledge foundation met and take away was potential was there for DCATlike models 22:49:18 <HadleyBeeman> q 22:49:20 <HadleyBeeman> q? 22:49:31 <davemc> John: everyone agrees dcat model makes sense 22:49:44 <davemc> John: no competitors for DCAT 22:49:56 <HadleyBeeman> ack sandro 22:49:56 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify what's happening with dcat 22:50:31 <davemc> Sandro: Sandro clarifies that DCAT was presented 22:51:16 <davemc> Sandro: dact is on refernce track 22:51:45 <davemc> s/dact/dcat 22:52:26 <Zakim> -bhandspicker 22:52:35 <davemc> Sandro: timeline is unclear, but hopefully not very long 22:52:51 <davemc> Hadley: moves to continue and readress this later 22:53:08 <HadleyBeeman> CARD for GLD WG: clarify the DCAT development/recommendation process within the context of the GLD's work. 22:53:44 <sandro> Sandro: See http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter 2.3 Standard Vocabularies, Item 1 Metadata. 22:53:53 <davemc> PhilA: DC and DCAT model being developed in EC is due in Dec 2011 22:54:24 <davemc> PhilA: ADMS uses both terminology DC and DCAT 22:54:30 <olyerickson> Discussion of Max Dekkers' ADMS work (to be finished Dec 2011) 22:55:14 <davemc> PhilA: next year for endoersement by EU, not legally binding but commission will "request" (force of procurement) 22:55:55 <davemc> PhilA: ADMS may have impact in EU, but may fail wrldwide, due to .EU status 22:56:06 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: GLD WG can review the ADMS work. 22:56:39 <davemc> John: ADMS doc available? PhilA: not public yet. 22:57:20 <davemc> John: How do we deal with this activity, (consultant working on project) wrt our specifications 22:57:49 <davemc> PhilA: Consultant does know his stuff, and has active community 22:57:51 <sandro> q+ 22:58:06 <davemc> PhilA: eGov needs to provide bridge across commuities 22:58:25 <davemc> PhilA: we will have to work within these timelines. 22:58:51 <davemc> HAdley: Can we move GLD stuff to GLD 22:59:20 <davemc> PhilA: working on core vocabs: person, Business and location/address 22:59:31 <sandro> q- 22:59:32 <olyerickson> +1 to ADMS being a W3C GLD discussion topic (along with DCAT and other (?!?) dataset catalog vocabs) 22:59:40 <davemc> PhilA: (moving on) 23:00:08 <davemc> PhilA: GLD lots of crossover with Crossover 23:00:43 <davemc> PhilA: hopes Bernadette will get into what hs been built 23:01:39 <davemc> PhilA: ESP games for crowd sourcing tags, data correction. Gamification issue 23:02:17 <davemc> Zakim, q? 23:02:17 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue 23:02:31 <davemc> Hadley calls time check 23:03:22 <davemc> John: gives background on efforts 23:04:15 <davemc> John: RPI has been working in this space for some time, portal is "Linking Open Government Data" 23:05:12 <davemc> John: process identifies data set, pulls them down, creates provenance, enhance data, 23:05:25 <davemc> John: Billions of triples, millions of data set converted 23:05:57 <davemc> John: Idea was to create portal to help build community 23:06:19 <davemc> John: demos, source code, tutorials, 23:07:22 <davemc> John: new introductions; International open gov data search. 23:07:54 <davemc> John: scaping open gov data, create RDF DCAT-like metadata, and make available 23:08:38 <davemc> s/scap/scrap 23:09:07 <davemc> John: need to follow a common metadata model 23:09:40 <davemc> John: it's a step forward that gov data _is_ available, though model is 15 years old 23:10:18 <davemc> John: Instance hub, canonical identifiers for use during conversion 23:10:30 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to John's point that the publishing models (formats, etc) are 15 years old. 23:10:59 <HadleyBeeman> (Though I'll emphasise that it's much better to get CSV data with poor metadata than not get it at all!) 23:11:10 <davemc> John: EPA toxic data example 23:13:11 <davemc> John: demo of water quality data app 23:14:23 <davemc> John: munge of multiple data sources and drill-in 23:15:31 <davemc> Hadley: seems to be great cross between John and PhilA app directions 23:16:43 <davemc> Phila: gov types may be resistant to such examples such as arsenic 23:17:12 <davemc> John: data is deeper 23:17:26 <davemc> PhilA: data needs to be in context 23:18:15 <davemc> John: work is around where the data comes from and representing the full timeline 23:18:46 <davemc> Hadley: problem exists even between written versus spoken words 23:20:20 <davemc> John: may be compared across lots of data comparisons 23:21:03 <olyerickson> See http://inference-web.org/wiki/Semantic_Water_Quality_Portal for screen shot "demo" and discussion 23:21:05 <davemc> Hadley: open data in UK may be viewed as used for "punishment" 23:21:33 <davemc> Hadley: we may need to address this more positively 23:22:03 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov 23:22:06 <olyerickson> See http://was.tw.rpi.edu/swqp/map.html for live Semantic Water Quality demo (note: limited regions encoded) 23:22:32 <davemc> Hadley: Linkedgov will move to NFP 23:23:16 <davemc> Hadley: 3 problems: data types 23:23:30 <davemc> Hadley: allows mash ups across data from one place 23:23:42 <davemc> Hadley: works with officials to decode data 23:24:43 <davemc> Hadley: demo/discussion of aggregating datasets 23:25:18 <davemc> Hadley: sometimes hard to recognized connections 23:25:39 <davemc> Hadley: many datasets are missing metadata 23:26:49 <davemc> Hadley: once the connection is made, the data aggregation is also made available 23:27:32 <davemc> Hadley: linkedgov is building games to engage . tasks take 30s or less 23:28:14 <davemc> Hadley: good engagement with civil service 23:29:15 <davemc> Hadley: semantic sketch for open quesry 23:29:28 <davemc> s/quesry/query/ 23:29:53 <davemc> Hadley: reliability score is made up of manyitems 23:30:59 <davemc> Jeanne: what does clean up the data mean? 23:31:28 <davemc> Hadley: we use open practices to make the data better 23:32:24 <davemc> John: describes the process from the query 23:32:43 <davemc> Hadley: may see multiple answers, from multiple datasets 23:32:55 <davemc> john: reliability? 23:33:11 <davemc> Hadley: describes items for reliability (age, source, etc) 23:33:44 <davemc> John: this is the essence for mashup and visualizations 23:34:09 <davemc> John: seems well designed to select appropriate datasets 23:34:36 <davemc> John: often the questions get simplified 23:34:52 <davemc> Hadley: we want to navigate through data in multiple days 23:35:12 <davemc> Hadley: may be great to move into social aspects 23:35:38 <davemc> Hadley: visualization is increasingly important 23:36:23 <davemc> Hadley: process loop focuses on the feedback (providers and interpreters) 23:37:02 <davemc> Jeanne: take a 15 minute break. following policy and accessibility 23:38:30 <Zakim> -sandro 23:39:11 <PhilA> Break for coffee 23:43:31 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, tpac, in SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM 23:43:34 <Zakim> SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM has ended 23:43:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, tpac, bhyland, +1.410.975.aaaa, Paola, +1.847.699.aabb, Kevin_Simkins, [IPcaller], +1.703.992.aacc, +1.703.992.aadd, Cory-c, bhandspicker, +1.312.208.aaee, 23:43:38 <Zakim> ... +1.312.208.aaff, +1.647.747.aagg, josema, +1.571.331.aahh 23:53:26 <sandro> zakim, this is egov 23:53:26 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'egov' in progress or scheduled at this time 23:53:50 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 23:54:04 <sandro> zakim, room for 5? 23:54:05 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(egov)23:54Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 0054Z 23:54:26 <sandro> PhilA, it looks like the egov conference timed out. Let's use CONF2. 23:54:37 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov all-day meeting Oct 31, Nov 1 -- http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 Conf Code 26632 (CONF2) 23:54:52 <Zakim> Team_(egov)23:54Z has now started 23:54:59 <Zakim> +Sandro 00:00:04 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the phone? 00:00:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro 00:00:52 <olyerickson> Zakim, I am the scribe 00:00:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am the scribe', olyerickson 00:00:54 <PhilA> scribe: olyerickson 00:01:00 <olyerickson> scribe: olyerickson 00:01:44 <olyerickson> topic: Open Government Data Practices and Policies (continued) 00:02:00 <sandro> ping. can someone dial back in, code CONF2 ? 00:02:26 <olyerickson> hadley: have now recognized that they need to do more 00:02:40 <sandro> PhilA, ? 00:02:50 <olyerickson> ... conversations w/ dev's focus on problem of data behind paywalls 00:03:00 <olyerickson> what is open data 00:03:13 <sandro> Can you dial in? code Conf2 00:03:26 <olyerickson> what rights do citizens have to data 00:03:26 <olyerickson> what is our obligation to citizens 00:04:40 <olyerickson> The Shareholder Executive is responsible for maximizing revenue from (e.g.) selling of data 00:05:06 <olyerickson> Conflicts with transparency objective of govt 00:05:53 <olyerickson> people like Chris Taggert are concerned because solutions to consultations may go the way of charging for data 00:06:10 <olyerickson> further complicated by fact that UK part of EU 00:06:39 <PhilA> zakim, who is here? 00:06:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro 00:06:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see HadleyBeeman, tlr, olyerickson, bhyland, jkiss, chsiao, PhilA, harlanyu_, Zakim, RRSAgent, edsu, trackbot, sandro 00:06:43 <olyerickson> ... EU *guideline* is that only marginal costs should be charged for data 00:07:00 <olyerickson> ... plus a "reasonable" rate of return 00:07:15 <PhilA> zakim, what is the code? 00:07:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:email@example.com), PhilA 00:07:36 <olyerickson> Further complicated by fact that e.g. Ordnance Survey largely private sector company 00:08:25 <olyerickson> Each of the Consultation documents is roughly 40 pgs long 00:09:30 <olyerickson> Hadley has no idea what will happen. While we'd like all data to be free, the reality is there is data that must be paid for 00:10:31 <olyerickson> Decision is due "early next year" 00:10:53 <Zakim> +tpac 00:11:01 <sandro> thanks! 00:11:07 <PhilA> sandrom can you hear us? 00:11:11 <PhilA> Ack 00:11:12 <sandro> yes 00:17:02 <HadleyBeeman> zakim, who is on the phone? 00:17:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, tpac 00:29:33 <PhilA> Topic: Accessibility with Jason Kiss 00:30:09 <PhilA> jkiss: open data isn't really my thing. If I weren't here, would you talk about accessibility? 00:30:31 <PhilA> Jeanne: yes accessibility of gov websites is a topic 00:31:01 <PhilA> jkiss: section 508 covers all government paid for ICT. cf. Canada it's based on human rights 00:31:19 <PhilA> jkiss: UK 2010 Equality act mandates that gov sites are accessible 00:32:07 <PhilA> ... Canada only applies to public websites. Internal ones only have to be accessible to disabled staff so it's common to see inaccessible intranets even though that would break policies 00:32:38 <PhilA> ... Australia has govt ICT councils that endorse a strategy that moves to WCAG 2. NZ has a Cabinet Minute 00:33:14 <PhilA> ... but that's still a rule and that effectively mandates public gov sites are accessible 00:34:23 <PhilA> jkiss: UN mandates accessibility too. Subject to ratification but US is holding it up. It's based on human rights principles 00:35:12 <PhilA> ... same problems exist in all gov web teams - lack of skill nad knowledge 00:35:22 <PhilA> ... also most 3rd party web development firms 00:35:33 <PhilA> ... some do very well but generally the level of skill is not good 00:36:14 <PhilA> ... intro of HTML and more JS means that web developers have more to learn. Tend to just grab what's available 00:36:30 <PhilA> ... getting levels of accessibility up is going to be a continued difficulty 00:37:09 <PhilA> ... gets more difficult when we talk about open data. Visualisation of masses of data is really good but that leaves a whole bunch of people unable to access it 00:37:41 <PhilA> ... it can't always be translated into a format that is accessible to a blind person or someone that can't easily use a mouse 00:38:19 <PhilA> Jeanne: Does it help that we're developing for devises that don't have mice? 00:39:08 <PhilA> jkiss: I'd say it helps a little. Assistive devices translate keyboard actions etc translate actions into mouse movements 00:39:40 <PhilA> jkiss: There's a really good Aussie assistant that is free cf. Jaws which costs %1K 00:39:54 <PhilA> s/%/$/ 00:40:09 <PhilA> jkiss: it's a fully blown across the board Windows screen reader 00:40:28 <PhilA> ... for web browsing I'd say it's better than Jaws 00:40:44 <PhilA> jkiss: NVDA Non Visual Desktop Access is the tool 00:41:10 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov 00:41:36 <PhilA> olyerickson: news stories have been inaccessible to gov websites because the accessibility isn't there 00:42:58 <PhilA> ... how does accessibility hamper the new outputs? 00:43:10 <PhilA> ... and how do we need to think about visualisations? 00:43:57 <PhilA> jkiss: The Canadian govt just wrote a new standard on accessibility to replace the old one - cites WCAG 2 and the new section 508 will do the same 00:44:20 <olyerickson> "Section 508" link: http://www.section508.gov/ 00:44:34 <PhilA> ... they've included some exemptions, such as for complex maps, such as radar weather maps 00:45:23 <PhilA> jkiss: there's an exemption because the tech isn't there yet to avoid an inordinate amount of work to create an alternative representayion 00:46:47 <olyerickson> "Aria" link: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria 00:47:58 <PhilA> jkiss: emphasises low cost of doing accessibility at the outset cf. adding it afterwards 00:48:44 <PhilA> JH: I believe in living by the spirit, not just the letter of 508 00:49:11 <PhilA> ... when I work on any project, meeting 508 is always the last thing they think of 00:49:50 <PhilA> ... alt="planet" for a beautiful picture of Saturn doesn't quite cutr it 00:49:56 <PhilA> s/curt/cut/ 00:50:25 <PhilA> jh: now we have heavily tagged images - it's a great resource 00:50:46 <olyerickson> phila: mobile is very close to accessibility 00:51:21 <olyerickson> ... if you build a mobile site, you automatically achieve (high percentage) of WCAG 00:51:57 <olyerickson> jkiss: examples include building mobile site first, then following with full site 00:52:16 <olyerickson> phila: teaches "responsible web design" 00:52:40 <olyerickson> JH: Somestimes shocked at her lack of understanding of accessibility 00:53:18 <olyerickson> ... but there are interesting exceptions, such as secondlife: everything is a map coordinate 00:54:12 <olyerickson> jh: the question is, how to deal with navigating datasets 00:54:26 <olyerickson> jkiss: format will help 00:55:06 <olyerickson> JH: Need to build out list of resources, in this case list of policies 00:55:41 <olyerickson> action: jiss to provide list on international policies and guidelines on accessibility 00:55:41 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jiss 00:55:58 <olyerickson> action: jkiss to provide list on international policies and guidelines on accessibility 00:55:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jkiss 00:56:49 <olyerickson> jkiss: the "5 nations" have expressed accessibility standards 00:57:08 <olyerickson> ... UK is least 'formalized" 00:57:28 <olyerickson> ... UK; "directive on accessible web sites" 00:57:55 <olyerickson> HB: Does UK work? Allows for common sense to be applied 00:58:57 <olyerickson> jkiss: WCAG-2 a leap forward from WCAG-1. Concern over loose guidance, could lead to restrictions that are not necessary 00:59:46 <olyerickson> ... some cases where stronger guidance might lead to better/more accessible results 01:00:11 <olyerickson> ... BUT if common sense is working, then that's great! 01:01:31 <olyerickson> jkiss: common/shared services, common look and feel, etc are good things; you start off automatically accessible 01:01:59 <olyerickson> phila: Should we talk about archiving/records management? 01:02:02 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov 01:03:13 <olyerickson> Natl Archives is chartered with all of UK records management 01:06:02 <olyerickson> BS 8878 http://bit.ly/t9CM8X 01:06:24 <olyerickson> "Draft BS 8878:2009 Web accessibility. Building accessible experiences for disabled people. Code of practice" http://bit.ly/t9CM8X 01:07:54 <olyerickson> "Cultural capital for WCAG" 01:09:55 <olyerickson> discussion of W3C recommendation imprimatur 01:10:20 <olyerickson> TOPIC: Tomorrow 01:10:27 <olyerickson> reconvience at 9a 01:11:25 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'll lead a social media free for all tomorrow morning 01:11:41 <PhilA> ... there are several issues for us to talk around 01:12:07 <PhilA> JH: The world and social media are changing 01:12:35 <PhilA> ... we should have a sense of how it impacts governments 01:13:01 <PhilA> jh: Then Anne Fitzgerald from Aus will call in to talk about licensing 01:13:15 <PhilA> ... then Bernadette will talk about the directory 01:13:31 <PhilA> ... then John is back on after lunch to talk about E&O 01:13:56 <PhilA> Meeting adjourning at 18:13 01:17:19 <PhilA> rrsagent, generate minutes 01:17:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-egov-minutes.html PhilA 01:19:14 <HadleyBeeman> UK's public data principles: http://data.gov.uk/blog/new-public-sector-transparency-board-and-public-data-transparency-principles 01:22:25 <PhilA> PhilA has left #egov 01:25:22 <Zakim> -tpac 01:25:23 <Zakim> -Sandro 01:25:23 <Zakim> Team_(egov)23:54Z has ended 01:25:24 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, tpac 01:29:50 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 01:58:51 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov