Chatlog 2010-04-29 Data Catalog Vocabulary

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<sandro> Guest: Bobbin Teegarden,
<sandro> Guest: William (ww) Waites
<sandro> Guest: Paul (PaulZH) Hermans
<sandro> Present: Brand_Niemann, David_James, Ed_Summers, Fadi_Maali, George_Thomas, Jon_Phipps, Li_Ding, Luigi_Montanez, Martín_Álvarez, Michael_Hausenblas, Richard_Cyganiak, Vassilios Peristeras
15:01:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
15:01:16 <RRSAgent> logging to
15:01:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:01:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
15:01:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM already started
15:01:21 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
15:01:21 <trackbot> Date: 29 April 2010
15:01:30 <cygri> nice. thanks mhausenblas!
15:01:54 <cygri> agenda:
15:02:06 <edsu> Zakim, LC is edsu
15:02:06 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
15:02:10 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
15:02:12 <Zakim> +??P7
15:02:25 <cygri> Chair: cygri
15:02:31 <cygri> Scribe: edsu
15:02:52 <cygri> zakim, who is here?
15:02:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, +1.202.955.aaaa, martin, George, +03539149aabb (muted), edsu, ??P7
15:02:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, LuigiMontanez, PaulZH, george, jonphipps, martin, fadi, cygri, n8fr8__, mhausenblas, hughb, ww, edsu, sandro, trackbot
15:03:10 <Zakim> +jonphipps
15:03:29 <lindstream> lindstream has joined #egov
15:03:32 <Zakim> +??P8
15:03:57 <n8fr8__> n8fr8__ has left #egov
15:04:03 <Zakim> - +03539149aabb
15:04:09 <vassilios> vassilios has joined #egov
15:04:12 <DavidJames> DavidJames has joined #egov
15:04:46 <edsu> that's dc area
15:04:54 <Zakim> + +1.425.378.aacc
15:05:23 <Zakim> + +03539149aadd
15:06:00 <edsu> ww: are you on the call?
15:06:09 <PaulZH> I'm also calling IP
15:06:56 <bobbin> bobbin has joined #egov
15:06:57 <cygri> zakim, who is talking?
15:07:08 <Zakim> cygri, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P3 (9%), ??P8 (9%)
15:07:18 <fadi> zakim, aabb is fadi
15:07:18 <Zakim> sorry, fadi, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
15:07:29 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, +1.202.955.aaaa, martin, George, edsu, ??P7, jonphipps, ??P8, +1.425.378.aacc (muted), +03539149aadd (muted)
15:07:46 <cygri> zakim, aadd is fadi
15:07:46 <Zakim> +fadi; got it
15:08:09 <vassilios> vassilios also on IP phone
15:09:08 <cygri> zakim, aaaa is LuigiMontanez
15:09:08 <Zakim> +LuigiMontanez; got it
15:09:16 <cygri> zakim, who is here?
15:09:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, LuigiMontanez, martin, George, edsu, ??P7, jonphipps, ??P8, +1.425.378.aacc (muted), fadi (muted)
15:09:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see bobbin, DavidJames, vassilios, lindstream, RRSAgent, Zakim, LuigiMontanez, PaulZH, george, jonphipps, martin, fadi, cygri, mhausenblas, hughb, ww, edsu, sandro,
15:09:20 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:09:58 <edsu> Topic: Admin
15:10:21 <edsu> cygri: agenda
15:10:51 <edsu> ... we'll have a presentation from martin of ctic, and hopefully one from li ding of rpi
15:11:23 <edsu> ... time permitting i'd like to talk about the scope and deliverables of the group 
15:11:34 <edsu> ... and hopefully write those down on the wiki
15:11:39 <edsu> Topic: Demos
15:12:13 <cygri> wiki page:
15:12:19 <edsu> martin: here at ctic we develop an open data solution in spain, a good proof of concept of the linked data solution
15:12:59 <edsu> ... here you can see some metadata based on the VoID and Dublin Core vocabularies
15:13:24 <edsu> ... you can see license and provenance information, and the available data formats
15:13:47 <edsu> ... the generation of the catalog is using sparql and xslt
15:14:29 <martin>
15:14:30 <edsu> ... we have a list of catalogs (a meta catalog)
15:15:16 <fadi> fadi has joined #egov
15:15:23 <edsu> ... similar to the deri dcat approach, title, description, license
15:15:28 <martin>
15:15:40 <martin>
15:16:06 <edsu> ... also have a rss feed of the catalogs, which is used to geenrate a map of the catalogs
15:17:18 <edsu> cygri: you have used void for the data catalog, are the datasets in the catalog all available as rdf? this is not the case for most catalogs (e.g.
15:17:38 <edsu> ... do you think it makes sense to use void when the dataset is not rdf?
15:18:21 <edsu> martin: i think void is by definition only for rdf data sets ... so i think no?
15:18:52 <edsu> cygri: that's what void was made for originally, but it possibly could be applied in a broader scope ... but i take your answer as saying you'd only use it for rdf data sets?
15:19:04 <edsu> martin: i think void could be useful
15:19:23 <cygri> zakim, who is here
15:19:23 <Zakim> cygri, you need to end that query with '?'
15:19:29 <edsu> mapstraction.addOverlay('');
15:19:35 <cygri> zakim, who is here?
15:19:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, LuigiMontanez, martin, George, edsu, ??P7, jonphipps, ??P8, +1.425.378.aacc (muted), fadi (muted)
15:19:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see fadi, bobbin, DavidJames, vassilios, lindstream, RRSAgent, Zakim, LuigiMontanez, PaulZH, george, jonphipps, martin, cygri, mhausenblas, hughb, ww, edsu, sandro,
15:19:40 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:20:34 <Zakim> + +1.202.564.aaee
15:21:27 <edsu> cygri: do we have a new attendee from dc?
15:21:48 <edsu> cygri: ok, it's brandt from epa in washington
15:21:54 <cygri> zakim, aaee is brand
15:21:54 <Zakim> +brand; got it
15:23:04 <edsu> bobbin: i'm on the call too
15:23:15 <cygri> zakim, aacc is bobbin
15:23:15 <Zakim> +bobbin; got it
15:23:56 <cygri> zakim, who is here?
15:23:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, LuigiMontanez, martin, George, edsu, ??P7, jonphipps, ??P8, bobbin, fadi, brand
15:23:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see fadi, bobbin, DavidJames, vassilios, lindstream, RRSAgent, Zakim, LuigiMontanez, PaulZH, george, jonphipps, martin, cygri, mhausenblas, hughb, ww, edsu, sandro,
15:24:01 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:24:25 <DavidJames> LuigiMontanez and I are sharing a conference phone
15:24:43 <cygri> zakim, davidjames is with luigimontane
15:24:43 <Zakim> +davidjames; got it
15:24:50 <cygri> zakim, davidjames is with luigimontanez
15:24:50 <Zakim> davidjames was already listed in LuigiMontanez, cygri
15:24:51 <bobbin> Bobbin Teegarden, semantic consultant in Seattle
15:25:14 <edsu> cygri: seems like Li isn't going to make the call
15:25:21 <edsu> Topic: Deliverables
15:26:37 <edsu> cygri: there wasn't a clear consensus at the end of the last call, about defining an abstract vocabulary about the data you find in catalogs, and then we could have several different documents that explain how you could use these terms in a concrete syntax: rdf/xml, rdfa, atom, etc
15:26:54 <edsu> ... a couple of points were raised on the mailing list
15:27:13 <edsu> ... erik suggested we should be clear about the types of serices we want to enable
15:27:27 <edsu> ... so that's where i would like to pick up
15:27:40 <DavidJames> we're getting a lot of echo and delay on the line
15:27:41 <LI_DING> LI_DING has joined #egov
15:28:20 <edsu> cygri: i sent an email
15:28:50 <edsu> ... one deliverable might be use cases and requirements
15:29:20 <edsu> ... a second thing could be an rdf vocabulary and reference that lists the terms, which required/optional, examples
15:29:56 <edsu> ... it would make sense to use some sort of formalism, uml, or perhaps rdf schema, since it will give us one possible way of deploying dcat data
15:30:55 <edsu> ... in the email the choice of concrete format maybe we should not decide on this yet ... if we have some clear requirements for using syndication formats for example ; or if we can do everything with rdfa -- it's hard to say before we know what requirements we have
15:31:23 <edsu> ... do you think we could delay the decision about the concrete format until we do use cases requuirements?
15:31:23 <Zakim> + +1.518.495.aaff
15:31:34 <Zakim> - +1.518.495.aaff
15:31:50 <PaulZH> I do agree to postpone the decision
15:32:38 <Zakim> + +1.518.495.aagg
15:32:47 <edsu> edsu: i agree in principle, but it will take more time
15:32:52 <LI_DING> hi 
15:32:55 <LI_DING> li is joining
15:33:25 <edsu> Zakim, +1.518.495.aagg is LI_DING 
15:33:25 <Zakim> +LI_DING; got it
15:34:04 <edsu> LI_DING: we're reviewing cygri's proposal at
15:34:55 <edsu> cygri: i think by writing down use cases and requirements we'll get a better understanding about technical choices
15:35:30 <edsu> LI_DING: what is the current status, discussion the requirements?
15:36:27 <edsu> cygri: yes, basically we're discussing whether we should abstract out of the concrete syntax, and write use cases and requirements
15:37:22 <edsu> ... there doesn't seem to be a lot of disagreement or agreement with this
15:37:55 <edsu> LI_DING: i want to hear more voices first i think
15:38:11 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone
15:38:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', cygri
15:38:23 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:38:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, LuigiMontanez, martin, George, edsu, ??P7, jonphipps (muted), ??P8, bobbin, fadi (muted), brand, LI_DING
15:38:25 <Zakim> LuigiMontanez has LuigiMontanez, davidjames
15:38:58 <DavidJames> Regarding ... I like the list of requirements.
15:39:49 <DavidJames> The deliverables also look good to me.
15:39:55 <edsu> LI_DING: i'd need more time to review the proposal, but i think we want to keep things as minimal as possible to get something out there quick, also i think we should keep use cases simple, how much do we want to get?
15:40:19 <edsu> ... we should try to produce something actionable
15:41:37 <edsu> cygri: i don't hear any strong objection to moving forwards with the deliverables i outlined in the email ; for now we should continue working with this assumption
15:41:54 <LI_DING> one thing could be a challenge
15:42:03 <DavidJames> Can we ask everyone to vote (or something similar)?
15:42:34 <edsu> LI_DING: maybe we can have a challenge a deliverable: how many gov't data sets can you find?
15:43:16 <edsu> ... lets grow the number of government data sets, more people using the vocabulary
15:43:45 <edsu> cygri: but what does this mean for the format we want to design?
15:44:10 <vassilios> i think it is not a matter of number of datasets but number of catalogues
15:45:07 <Zakim> -brand
15:45:22 <edsu> LI_DING: it's a parallel effort: one side we grow the datasets, and on the other we develop the terminology, vocabulary that can be used
15:46:16 <edsu> cygri: DavidJames you asked whether we should do a vote, i'm not sure what point this would serve
15:46:33 <edsu> ... since there doesn't seem to be any strong disagreement
15:46:43 <cygri> ack DavidJames
15:46:48 <edsu> DavidJames: i think it would be nice to hear the agreement
15:47:22 <edsu> cygri: i think this is something i'd like to do on the next call, rather than rushing it
15:47:35 <edsu> ... to make sure there is enough time
15:47:49 <edsu> Topic: Use Cases
15:48:56 <edsu> cygri: we want to have use case or stories for what people want to be able to do: for example i want to be able to get a list of datasets from that are not supported by the current user interface
15:49:22 <edsu> ... i'd be interested to hear about what use cases people on the call have
15:49:32 <edsu> ... for standard formats for data catalogs
15:49:42 <Zakim> -LI_DING
15:50:41 <edsu> martin: i'd like to be able to query multiple catalogs, to be able to query other geographic regions
15:51:16 <vassilios> cross-catalogue querying
15:51:25 <edsu> cygri: so you want to be able to federate national catalogs into say a european union catalog?
15:51:47 <edsu> s/martin/vassilios/
15:52:00 <edsu> vassilios: yes
15:52:21 <george> (fed/state/local) gov agency independently published catalog using (some set of standard) vocab for dynamic aggregation of catalogs
15:52:55 <george> would like to see bottom up (as per Li - in use) drive basic (extensible) rdfs vocab convergence for w3c blessing
15:53:00 <edsu> DavidJames: for the nationaldatacatalog we'd like to consume data from other data catalogs, we'd like to have one uniform way of getting at catalog data
15:53:33 <edsu> ... for municipalities and state governments we'd like to do a similar thing, enabling federation across many levels
15:54:38 <edsu> george: i think i share the interest that david and luigi have ; would be great to have some sort of vocabulary at the w3c that reflects what's in use as much as possible
15:54:42 <edsu> cygri: agreed
15:55:47 <edsu> martin: i think federation is soemthing i would like to do ; i agree with vassilios with his approach
15:55:56 <LI_DING> I was dropped from the call
15:56:46 <edsu> cygri: it might be a good next step to draft this use case as a little document, to sketch how it could look in practice as a story
15:56:47 <vassilios> i could help on this
15:57:14 <edsu> ... there are a couple of other use cases on the mailing list, maybe we can get those into written form too
15:57:27 <vassilios> OK
15:57:55 <vassilios> and i thin kit is more or less the same whether we speak about EU or USA
15:58:03 <edsu> cygri: would be great if you could start it, and we could see if other use cases are covered
15:58:33 <edsu> ACTION: vassilios to document a federation use case for dcat
15:58:33 <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: No child element named 'id') - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
15:58:48 <george> +1
15:58:48 <LuigiMontanez> yes, I have access
15:58:50 <LuigiMontanez> +1
15:58:52 <DavidJames> +1
15:58:56 <edsu> +1
15:58:56 <martin> +1
15:58:58 <fadi> +1
15:59:03 <edsu> cygri: wiki is ok?
15:59:17 <cygri>
15:59:36 <edsu> cygri: great, there is a page where i've copy pasted stuff from the email, i propose we add subsections there, use this as a live document
15:59:53 <edsu> cygri: so that's it for this week, thank you all for joining in
15:59:56 <DavidJames> thanks
16:00:00 <george> thank you cygri
16:00:01 <cygri> thanks all!
16:00:06 <LuigiMontanez> thank you cygri, edsu for transcribing
16:00:06 <vassilios> thank you!
16:00:13 <Zakim> -George
16:00:17 <Zakim> -??P3
16:00:18 <george> thanks edsu
16:00:21 <Zakim> -LuigiMontanez
16:00:23 <Zakim> -fadi
16:00:25 <Zakim> -jonphipps
16:00:25 <edsu> np :-)
16:00:29 <Zakim> -edsu
16:00:31 <Zakim> -??P8
16:00:37 <Zakim> -martin
16:00:39 <edsu> RRSAgent, generate minutes
16:00:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate edsu
16:00:51 <Zakim> -bobbin
16:01:05 <cygri> ok, chairing a teleconference from a conference hallway is a bad idea. i won't try that again :-)
16:01:19 <edsu> cygri: heheh, any news from www2010?
16:01:21 <george> wish i was there!
16:01:29 <LuigiMontanez> LuigiMontanez has joined #egov
16:01:36 <bobbin> zakim?
16:02:08 <cygri> edsu, yes, many interesting things going on. great conference so far
16:02:10 <edsu> shoot, the minutes don't look to good
16:02:17 <edsu>
16:02:31 <cygri> bobbin, what do you want zakim to do?
16:02:51 <bobbin> +1
16:03:19 <edsu> cygri: it does look good
16:03:26 <edsu> (the conference)
16:03:40 <edsu> cygri: have you and Li had a chance to chat about stuff informally?
16:03:40 <cygri> edsu, the minutes look good to me?
16:03:51 <edsu> oh, they do look better now when i reloaded
16:04:02 <cygri> edsu, yes we had dinner yesterday and are planning a few things
16:04:08 <edsu> cygri: nice
16:04:26 <edsu> cygri: i think having you and Li on the same page will help a great deal
16:04:30 <Zakim> -??P7
16:04:31 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM has ended
16:04:32 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.202.955.aaaa, martin, George, +03539149aabb, edsu, jonphipps, +1.425.378.aacc, +03539149aadd, fadi, LuigiMontanez, +1.202.564.aaee, brand, bobbin, davidjames,
16:04:35 <Zakim> ... +1.518.495.aaff, LI_DING
16:05:19 <DavidJames> DavidJames has left #egov
16:06:27 <cygri> edsu, agreed
16:07:03 <cygri> will go now and see if they left any lunch for me
16:07:10 <cygri> thanks for scribing and the comments ed
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17:40:23 <ww> edsu: sorry wasn't able to make it today
17:41:05 <ww> would have liked to bring up the spatial/temporal ambiguity of dcat:granularity though
17:50:49 <DavidJames> DavidJames has joined #egov
17:56:42 <ww> cygri: do you think it would be reasonable to distinguish between spatial and temporal granularity/resolution in dcat?
17:58:11 <ww> (nevermind datasets that have different granularity on their different axes, which happens with some envionmental satellite datasets for example)
17:58:12 <cygri> ww, i'll have to talk to fadi to remember why we didn't distinguish them. can i get back to you about this next week?
17:58:27 <ww> sure no hurry
18:01:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #egov
18:04:36 <ww> any thoughts on rdf:graph, rdf:Graph?
18:09:50 <cygri> ww, what are those?
18:10:21 <ww> well, they don't exist, which I think is problematic
18:10:51 <ww> using the talis changeset, vocabulary, for example, changes are expressed as additions and removals of reified triples
18:11:10 <ww> i need a way to express the graph that those triples are supposed to live in
18:11:19 <ww> (not strictly related to egov as such, of couse)
18:11:34 <ww> we have rdf:Statement, rdf:subject, rdf:predicate, rdf:object
18:11:40 <ww> but no rdf:graph
18:12:03 <ww> I suppose because I believe that named graphs were added after the rdf core vocabulary was etched in stone
18:13:19 <ww> for my immediate purposes I've invented a namespace for this, but...
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