Chatlog 2010-03-31

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<sandro> Guest: Richard (cygri) Cyganiak,, DERI
13:00:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
13:00:22 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:00:31 <josema> trackbot, start telcon
13:00:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:00:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
13:00:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV(DMngmnt)8:00AM already started
13:00:36 <josema> chair: josema
13:00:36 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
13:00:36 <trackbot> Date: 31 March 2010
13:01:06 <josema> agenda+Agenda adjustments and next meetings
13:01:15 <josema> agenda+ Review of open actions
13:01:25 <josema> agenda+ Projects: status report from coordinators
13:01:32 <John> John has joined #egov
13:01:38 <josema> agenda+ What's going on / coming up
13:01:47 <josema> agenda+ Discussion on data catalogues
13:01:50 <josema> agenda?
13:01:59 <josema> zakim, who's here?
13:01:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see George
13:02:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see John, RRSAgent, Zakim, OwenAmbur, josema, ChrisB, sandro, trackbot
13:02:19 <cygri> cygri has joined #egov
13:02:42 <sandro> zakim, this is egov
13:02:42 <Zakim> sandro, this was already T&S_EGOV(DMngmnt)8:00AM
13:02:43 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches T&S_EGOV(DMngmnt)8:00AM
13:02:49 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:02:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see George
13:02:56 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
13:02:56 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro
13:03:37 <cygri> hi folks. is the call *now*? i can't dial in, it tells me the conference is restricted
13:03:42 <sandro> yeah.
13:03:44 <ChrisB> saem
13:03:45 <sandro> it's broken.
13:03:47 <ChrisB> *same
13:03:56 <John> Me too...
13:04:05 <ChrisB> bugger...
13:04:07 <josema> I don't even get the error message
13:04:30 <edsu> edsu has joined #egov
13:04:51 <ChrisB> I can see the e-Gov IG note now - "Best Practices in using Technology.... Don't!" lol
13:05:00 <josema> zakim sees George but he's not on IRC, so we cannot ask him :(
13:05:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, George, in T&S_EGOV(DMngmnt)8:00AM
13:05:03 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(DMngmnt)8:00AM has ended
13:05:03 <Zakim> Attendees were George
13:05:41 <sandro> I wish.
13:05:45 <sandro> I'm trying to reach someone.
13:05:57 <josema> ok, thx, sandro
13:06:09 <fadi> fadi has joined #egov
13:06:40 <ChrisB> I think I'm in...
13:06:48 <ChrisB> accepted the code
13:06:52 <edsu> is the meeting over?
13:06:53 <josema> zakim, who's here?
13:06:53 <Zakim> apparently T&S_EGOV(DMngmnt)8:00AM has ended, josema
13:06:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see fadi, edsu, cygri, John, RRSAgent, Zakim, OwenAmbur, josema, ChrisB, sandro, trackbot
13:07:07 <sandro> No, the meeting is supposed to start now.
13:07:12 <josema> ChrisB, did you hear a beep?
13:07:16 <ChrisB> yup
13:07:21 <josema> hmmm....
13:07:36 <ChrisB> dead air atm - cause I think I'm alone - no - someone else is on - very faint
13:07:49 <sandro> ChrisB and I are on....
13:08:16 <sandro> seems to be working now.
13:08:37 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
13:08:37 <Zakim> apparently T&S_EGOV(DMngmnt)8:00AM has ended, sandro
13:08:38 <cygri> yup i'm in
13:08:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see fadi, edsu, cygri, John, RRSAgent, Zakim, OwenAmbur, josema, ChrisB, sandro, trackbot
13:08:52 <sandro> zakim, this is egov
13:08:52 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches T&S_EGOV()9:00AM
13:09:01 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
13:09:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see George, [LC], ChrisB, +0203334aaaa, Sandro, [IPcaller], nunolopes, +03498429aabb
13:09:14 <josema> agenda?
13:09:21 <edsu> Zakim, LC is edsu
13:09:24 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
13:09:39 <Zakim> +??P16
13:10:22 <josema> agenda?
13:11:34 <josema> scribe: edsu
13:11:52 <edsu> TOPIC: Agenda adjustments and next meetings
13:12:00 <josema> zakim, next agendum
13:12:00 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Agenda adjustments and next meetings" taken up [from josema]
13:12:08 <edsu> josema: next meeting April 14th, need a scribe
13:13:19 <edsu> Zakim, next agendum
13:13:19 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Review of open actions" taken up [from josema]
13:13:20 <josema>
13:13:44 <josema> zakim, who's here?
13:13:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see George, edsu, ChrisB, +0203334aaaa, Sandro, [IPcaller], nunolopes, +03498429aabb, ??P16
13:13:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see fadi, edsu, cygri, John, RRSAgent, Zakim, OwenAmbur, josema, ChrisB, sandro, trackbot
13:14:09 <josema> regrets: kevin, rachel, cory
13:15:00 <cygri> zakim, nunolopes is cygri
13:15:00 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
13:15:07 <cygri> zakim, who's on the phone?
13:15:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see George, edsu, ChrisB, +0203334aaaa, Sandro, [IPcaller], cygri, +03498429aabb, ??P16
13:16:50 <sandro> I heard some voices in the distance there.
13:17:21 <josema> zakim, aabb is me
13:17:21 <Zakim> +josema; got it
13:17:35 <josema> zakim, [IPCaller] is probably Owen
#13:17:35 <Zakim> +Owen?; got it
13:18:00 <josema> zakim, aaaa is probably John
#13:18:00 <Zakim> +John?; got it
13:18:34 <josema> zakim, ??P16 is Vassilios
13:18:34 <Zakim> +Vassilios; got it
13:18:42 <josema> agenda?
13:18:47 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
13:18:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see George, edsu, ChrisB, John?, Sandro, Owen?, cygri, josema, Vassilios
13:19:15 <edsu> Zakim, next agendum
13:19:16 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Projects: status report from coordinators" taken up [from josema]
13:19:32 <josema>
13:20:03 <edsu> josema: george can you report a summary on your project?
13:20:55 <edsu> george: there's been some discussion about conventions of use for some of the standards, such as dcat, void, etc
13:21:16 <edsu> george: and trying to evangelize demonstrations that people already have
13:21:29 <edsu> josema: is there any expected deliverable?
13:21:51 <edsu> george: we haven't converged on that at this point
13:22:14 <edsu> josema: so what you have decided to is to act as an aggregator of different initiatives?
13:22:24 <edsu> george: that's kind of the default yes
13:22:50 <edsu> ... a reflection of sandro's comment about energy and availability of people involved
13:23:38 <edsu> josema: is there a sense of doing technical work, as well as a case that could be made for decision makers?
13:24:10 <edsu> george: yes
13:24:39 <edsu> josema: there is a need to make a value-proposition to poplicy makers
13:24:48 <edsu> george: i think there is a good opportunity for that 
13:25:12 <edsu> josema: best practices for using web technologies, chris?
#13:25:39 <Zakim> -Owen?
13:25:57 <edsu> ChrisB: we tried focus groups for publishing pdf files, and using mobile technology ; got some response about pdf
13:26:20 <edsu> ... we'll maybe get something written about redaction
13:26:38 <edsu> ... also some conversations with adobe
13:27:00 <edsu> ... trying to identify where the interest is
13:27:09 <josema> q?
13:27:51 <edsu> josema: there is some concern about the participation in the groups, which is when we decided to let other organizers go on their own for a bit 
13:28:18 <OwenAmbur> Lost my Skype connection
13:28:28 <edsu> ... hopefully focusing on very specific topics will help
13:28:56 <edsu> ChrisB: yeah, we were thinking of putting out short how-tos
13:29:07 <edsu> ... and go from there
13:30:00 <edsu> josema: we should clearer ideas about what we should produce, given the charter expiring in october
13:30:16 <edsu> s/we should/we should have/
13:30:28 <Zakim> -George
13:30:29 <edsu> ... don't be afraid of publishing something
13:31:06 <edsu> ... a working draft can be almost anything ; we shouldn't be afraid of putting drafts out there ; and also people should feel free to use the wiki
13:31:49 <edsu> ... people seem afraid sometimes
13:32:10 <edsu> josema: daniel isn't on the call today for best practices
13:32:57 <josema> agenda?
13:33:01 <edsu> ChrisB: Brian updated the social media project homepage
13:33:28 <edsu> Zakim, next agendum
13:33:28 <Zakim> agendum 4. "What's going on / coming up" taken up [from josema]
13:33:49 <edsu> josema: sandro could you tell us about fose?
13:34:53 <edsu> sandro: i was on a panel replacing john, with rachel and daniel and kevi
13:35:08 <edsu> sandro: i'll paste the link for the slides, and the video into irc
13:35:29 <edsu> ... there wasn't a lot of time for questions, and it seemed like some people were excited about it
13:35:38 <sandro>
13:35:39 <edsu> ... might get some people in the IG as a result
13:36:13 <edsu> josema: any other news from people on the call?
13:37:07 <edsu> ChrisB: i've got a paper accepted to talk about the Metadata Conference in Canberra
13:37:12 <OwenAmbur> The Industry Advisory Council (IAC) will be conducting a study of best practices with respect to the management of records created in social networking services
13:37:49 <edsu> John: i've got a paper w/ Jeni Tennison to talk about design patterns, provenance, data sets for Linked Data on the Web
13:38:08 <OwenAmbur> Pat Franks will be compiling a similar report under the auspices of IBM's Center for the Business of Government
13:38:23 <edsu> josema: kevin wanted me to make folks in the US aware of open government meetings about agency plans
13:39:07 <OwenAmbur> It would be nice if agencies posted their open gov plans in open StratML format
13:39:30 <OwenAmbur> If they fail to do so, I will probably convert some, if not all of them to StratML format myself
13:39:40 <ChrisB> @Owen - keep me posted on the IAC / Pats stuff - v interested
13:40:04 <josema> conference site --
13:40:48 <edsu> ... the National Conference on EGovernment is next week, i will try to send information to the list 
13:40:56 <josema> agenda?
13:41:18 <edsu> Zakim, next agendum
13:41:18 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Discussion on data catalogues" taken up [from josema]
13:42:19 <sandro> scovo
13:42:59 <edsu> cygri: we at DERI are working with people in the UK for expressing statistics in rdf ; the Office of National Statistics in the UK did a workshop for how they should move forward with publishing their data in RDF, and explored using SCOVO and SDMX ; but have started working on an SDMX vocabulary for RDF
13:43:32 <edsu> cygri: there will be an early initial paper on this at ldow workshop
13:43:46 <josema> that will be very useful for us, too
13:44:24 <edsu> John: this is work that I have commissioned ; once we get a good representation of sdmx for rdf is a key issue for Linked Data in the UK
13:45:09 <edsu> cygri: i'm distributing my time between the dcat and sdmxrdf
13:45:57 <edsu> josema: lets say you create that rdf vocab for sdmx, how will the relationship between the xml vocabulary and the rdf vocabulary work
13:46:36 <edsu> cygri: sdmx started as an edi standard ; it includes an abstract model (uml), and there is an xml syntax
13:47:44 <edsu> ... since there is an abstract model, we are exploring how possible it would be to translate between the xml and rdf data ; there is a lot of statistical data that's not available as sdmx, so we're thinking about how to easily make that data available as sdmx rdf
13:48:43 <edsu> John: jeni gave us an xslt demonstration of turning an sdmx xml document into rdf ... we figure the transformation of sdmx xml is going to be pretty straightforward
13:49:37 <edsu> ... there's also lgdx that is being used, and they have big systems that inhibit switching to something new ; so we want to be able to translate that as well
13:49:38 <josema> zakim, who's noisy?
13:49:40 <Zakim> +??P4
13:49:50 <Zakim> josema, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
13:50:10 <edsu> ... once sdmxrdf becomes something we can use we can surface quite a bit of data quite quickly
13:50:48 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
13:50:59 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 8 (18%), John? (59%), Vassilios (55%)
13:51:05 <Zakim> -Vassilios
13:51:19 <sandro> (nice timing)
13:51:42 <Zakim> +??P5
13:52:02 <edsu> John: we've started to use time interval uris too, which can be used to identify statistical data
13:52:14 <edsu> josema: sounds like this deserves its own agenda item, some time in the future
13:52:27 <cygri>  slides:
13:52:41 <edsu> ... i would love to see an agenda item to talk only about this some time in the future
13:53:09 <edsu> cygri: that's a link for some slides for the work so far
13:53:25 <josema> zakim, who's here?
13:53:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see edsu, ChrisB, John?, Sandro, cygri, josema, ??P4, ??P5
13:53:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see fadi, edsu, cygri, John, RRSAgent, Zakim, OwenAmbur, josema, ChrisB, sandro, trackbot
13:54:44 <edsu> josema: ok the floor is yours 
13:55:07 <edsu> cygri: please follow along in the slides
13:55:32 <edsu> ... most of the work has been by our egov unit and the linked data research center at deri
13:55:53 <josema> scribe: Ed Summers
13:55:55 <edsu> ... it's about enabling the interoperability of government data catalogs we've seen popping up
13:55:57 <josema> scribeNick: edsu
13:56:26 <josema> q?
13:57:00 <edsu> going to talk about why it's important ; what's out there now ; what the dcat vocab is ; some experiments we've been doing and where we should go next
13:57:39 <edsu> cygri: there are more than 30 government data catalogues online
13:58:46 <josema> compilation of the ones we found so far and ...
13:58:48 <edsu> ... these efforts are done by both public and private parties
13:59:04 <josema> ... or in RDF as default SPARQL query at ;)
13:59:33 <edsu> ... we're interested in this because the information is on the web and we'd like to query across the catalogs 
14:00:06 <edsu> ... so information about san francisco can be found in local, state and federal catalogs
14:00:39 <edsu> ... in the EU we can see how me might want an eu level catalog ...
14:01:57 <edsu> ... it would be nice to see new user interfaces for the data found in data catalogs ; which combine the metadata with the data itself ; also to do rating and social annotation of the data sets
14:03:26 <edsu> ... most of the data catalogs do export their data in a structured form
14:04:02 <edsu> ... however each has its own specific format, the documentation for it is lacking
14:05:01 <edsu> ... we did an in depth survey of 7 catalogs: some national some local
14:05:35 <edsu> ... we looked at the metadata, looking at the datasets themselves was out of scope
14:07:08 <edsu> ... we surveyed the types of metadata available
14:07:38 <edsu> ... quite a lot of metadata fields are shared, which is good news for interoperability
14:08:18 <edsu> ... we also looked at metadata fields, how consistently it was used, for example date fields
14:08:26 <josema> q?
14:10:03 <edsu> ... we also looked at direct download links
14:10:28 <edsu> ... sometimes they go directly to the data, but quite often you go to a splash page, with a click through license, and find the download link on the page
14:10:35 <ChrisB> q+
14:10:44 <edsu> ... this is bad news for automatic processing of the data
14:11:12 <ChrisB> End
14:11:16 <josema> thx
14:12:13 <edsu> cygri: the dcat vocab is at ; and an overview is available at
14:12:14 <josema> all, queue yourself if you have questions and we'll go through them at the end, thx
14:13:27 <edsu> cygri: we tried to keep in mind Hepp's Law: to be careful when designing a vocabulary not to make distinctions that aren't present in the data to be integrated
14:13:52 <josema> [that was very good advice]
14:14:11 <edsu> cygri: we don't want to require data cleansing before dcat can be used
14:14:51 <edsu> cygri: rdf allows extensibility (classes and properties) to express additional information, so we focused on stuff that's in all the catalogs
14:15:29 <edsu> ... we tried to reuse from dublincore, skos and foaf, and minimized what we created ourselves
14:16:40 <edsu> ... we introduced dcat:Catalog, dcat:Dataset, dcat:CatalogRecord, dcat:Distribution
14:17:02 <edsu> ... Distribution is used indicate that format that the dataset is available in 
14:17:19 <edsu> ... for example xml and json would be 2 Distributions
14:17:44 <edsu> ... categorization of datasets is common, and we used skos for this
14:18:14 <edsu> ... and the government agency that published the data was modeled with foaf:Organization
14:19:43 <edsu> ... we loaded some of the datasets into a standard relational database ; and then mapped to rdf with d2r
14:19:56 <edsu> ... which has a sparql interface
14:20:11 <edsu> ... and we linked some things up to geonames and dbpedia
14:20:30 <edsu> ... for example we linked the agencies to dbpedia
14:21:54 <edsu> ... we did some example sparql queries for listing datasets that were published by agencies with budgets > a certain amount
14:23:42 <edsu> ... one of the benefits of using dcat is that it could enable distributed publishing, and federation later
14:23:42 <josema> q?
14:24:10 <John> q+
14:24:22 <edsu> ... could also potentially allow datasets to be downloaded in an automated fashion
14:24:58 <edsu> ... also applications that worked on one data catalog could be repurposed
14:25:26 <edsu> ... we're looking for feedback on the vocabulary, and to get more eyes on the vocab
14:25:43 <josema> q+
14:25:55 <edsu> ... we're writing up a guide to using dcat
14:26:31 <edsu> ... at deri we'd like to use dcat w/ voiD for describing rdf datasets
14:27:07 <edsu> ... also w/ sdmx+rdf ; metadata about the dataset is important
14:27:49 <edsu> ... what really has to happen is that it needs to happen not only at DERI but elsewhere on the web, by the catalog publishers
14:28:23 <John> This is very important work
14:28:31 <josema> q-
14:29:00 <edsu> ... one question is, as more people are involved how do we organize our work in a distributed way?
14:29:24 <edsu> ... to what extent would the egov interest group be a good place to do this?
14:29:40 <John> We need something like this for RDF work
14:29:49 <edsu> josema: thanks very much, we only have a few minutes for asking questions 
14:29:50 <josema> ack ChrisB
14:30:32 <edsu> ChrisB: have you done anything with the datacite consortium, and when you were looking at australia did you look at the australian data service?
14:31:14 <josema> ack John
14:31:21 <edsu> cygri: no we just looked at au, would be interested in that
14:31:30 <sandro> PROPOSED: to extend the meeting, informally, for 15 minutes
14:31:30 <josema> q?
14:32:01 <edsu> John: i have someone looking at your work right now, would it be possible to version the document, right now it's still in draft
14:32:25 <josema> let's say 10, sandro ;)
14:32:42 <edsu> cygri: we have to provide some documentation about the use of other vocabularies, we have good coverage for the new vocabulary we have introduced
14:32:49 <Zakim> -ChrisB
14:32:59 <edsu> John: do you need any help?
14:33:01 <sandro> q+
14:33:14 <edsu> cygri: yes, always :-) perhaps we can discuss offline a bit
14:33:39 <edsu> ... it has to be driven by working on actual data
14:33:44 <josema> edsu: +
14:33:48 <josema> q+
14:33:49 <John> +1
14:34:23 <edsu> cygri: for v0.1 this is something we have to do here, it's hard to distribute
14:34:56 <josema> ack san
14:35:09 <edsu> josema: we're going to extend the meeting by 10-15 minutes
14:35:32 <John> +1
14:35:49 <edsu> sandro: this is very important work, i'm hoping that you can get users in the IG to help, but also institutional support from the w3c
14:35:58 <John> We should try and support somehow...
14:36:00 <josema> [I want to *thank* edsu for fantastic scribing today, wonderful, many many thanks]
14:36:11 <John> +1
14:36:17 <edsu> cygri: i'm not sure if we should use the egov mailing list, or create another one (infrastructure) ; we need an issue tracker for this
14:36:39 <John> This is on the nail, practical, just what we need in UK
14:36:50 <josema> it's something we also need for our work at CTIC, happy to help from here, preferred if within W3C
14:36:59 <edsu> ... an IG can publish notes at the w3c, for something like dcat to have moer acceptance an IG Note would have a lot more acceptance
14:37:04 <edsu> s/moer/more/
14:37:04 <John> And we can try and implement over next few weeks
14:37:24 <edsu> sandro: another thing is the namespace for the vocab, perhaps a w3c namespace would lend it more credibility
14:37:29 <edsu> John: it would for us
14:38:02 <josema> q?
14:38:18 <edsu> sandro: other applications i thought of: not every local gov't would have to make their own catalog, without requiring their own IT dept
14:38:22 <John> Yup!
14:38:29 <josema> +1
14:38:46 <edsu> sandro: also, i was thinking it could be possible to publish mappings w/ dcat
14:38:49 <John> This is much much needed just now
14:38:57 <josema> ack me
14:39:23 <edsu> josema: we really, really need this at my place of work
14:39:36 <edsu> ... sandro, how should we proceed?
14:39:57 <John> I'd love to see a group note on gov data catalogues
14:40:10 <edsu> sandro: i'm happy to listen to what richard wants to do
14:40:28 <edsu> cygri: i haven't followed to closely how the IG is being run with sub-projects
14:40:39 <josema> s/to/too
14:41:07 <edsu> ... with voiD we had good experience getting together a focused group, with a weekly call, with discussion list, issue tracker, and subversion repositoy
14:41:13 <edsu> s/repositoy/repository/
14:41:46 <edsu> ... i would try to replicate what we did w/ voiD 
14:42:05 <edsu> sandro: people seemed to want to use the egov ig discussion list for sub-projects
14:42:29 <edsu> ... maybe we could try to start on there with a [dcat] tag until someone complains
14:42:33 <edsu> cygri: i think that could work
14:42:59 <edsu> sandro: we could schedule a telecon, would richard be ok for chairing them?
14:43:05 <edsu> cygri: yes, great
14:43:12 <josema>
14:43:29 <edsu> josema: that's the link fot the current projects
14:43:49 <edsu> sandro: a lot of those aren't meeting so i wouldn't worry about it too much
14:44:01 <John> fabulous Richard!
14:44:12 <edsu> +1
14:44:46 <Zakim> -??P4
#14:44:48 <Zakim> -John?
14:44:48 <edsu> josema: next meeting aprl 14th
14:44:49 <Zakim> -cygri
14:44:50 <Zakim> -??P5
14:44:52 <Zakim> -Sandro
14:44:55 <edsu> josema: we are adjourned 
14:44:56 <josema> [ADJOURNED]
14:45:02 <Zakim> -josema
14:45:06 <josema> yup :)
14:45:07 <Zakim> -edsu
14:45:08 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended
14:45:09 <Zakim> Attendees were George, ChrisB, +0203334aaaa, Sandro, +03498429aabb, edsu, cygri, josema, Owen?, John?, Vassilios
14:45:17 <josema> zakim, list attendees
14:45:17 <Zakim> sorry, josema, I don't know what conference this is
14:45:27 <josema> rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate josema
14:45:31 <edsu> Zakim: you're not the only one :-)
14:45:42 <josema> ed, will you generate the wiki page?
14:45:52 <edsu> sandro: you helped me w/ that the last time
14:46:03 <edsu> sandro: is it easy for you to do, or to tell me how to do?
14:46:32 <edsu> josema++ # thanks for getting richard to talk today, that was really good stuff