Chatlog 2009-11-25

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<sandro> Guest: Karen Myers,, W3C
13:56:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
13:56:46 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:56:55 <josema> trackbot, start telcon
13:56:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:57:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
13:57:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM already started
13:57:01 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
13:57:01 <trackbot> Date: 25 November 2009
13:58:14 <Zakim> + +0789422aabb
13:58:58 <Zakim> - +0789422aabb
13:59:37 <Zakim> + +0789422aacc
14:00:10 <Zakim> - +0789422aacc
14:00:20 <Zakim> +Karen
14:00:36 <Zakim> + +49.178.404.aadd
14:00:42 <Zakim> +??P8
14:00:54 <Zakim> + +1.703.362.aaee
14:00:56 <Zakim> + +1.509.464.aaff
14:01:10 <Zakim> + +0789422aagg
14:01:45 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #egov
14:02:40 <Zakim> + +1.303.748.aahh
14:02:50 <Karen> Josema is chairing call today
14:03:04 <Karen> Brian in Denver
14:03:14 <ChrisBeer> (Just replied to Thomas's last email in regards to his points on Item 6.)
14:03:29 <Karen> HughB in UK
14:03:47 <hg> Hugh Glaser = hg in UK
14:04:07 <sandro> sandro has joined #egov
14:04:08 <ChrisBeer> HughB in Brisbane, not online atm, but monitoring
14:04:13 <ChrisBeer> (Australia)
14:04:14 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:04:14 <RRSAgent> See
14:04:25 <tb> tb = Thomas Bandholtz (Germany)
14:04:28 <hg> Newbie on these things so be gentle if I mess up :-)
14:04:33 <josema> I'm trying to get on the phone but cannot so far, I have to go to another room and try, I'll be back in a minute or two
14:04:36 <josema> is kevin around
14:04:37 <josema> ?
14:04:44 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:04:51 <ChrisBeer> Again, I am IRC only tonight
14:04:55 <Karen> Yes, Kevin is on the call, Josema
14:06:04 <sandro> q?
14:06:11 <josema> so... phone system is broken here, international calls not working, technical staff working on it :-(((
14:06:25 <josema> so, if kevin or sandro can chair for now, agenda is already loaded
14:06:27 <josema> agenda?
14:06:48 <josema> I have to chase a guy or two for a couple minutes and see if I can get this fixed
14:06:57 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: agenda:
14:06:59 <josema> I'm so sorry... checked the line this morning!
14:07:01 <sandro> scribe: sandro
14:07:02 <Karen> Josema, Kevin is going to get it started
14:07:10 <josema> thanks so much!
14:07:25 <sandro> topic: Agenda adjustments and next meetings
14:07:25 <Karen> Sandro: Next meeting is 9 December
14:07:35 <Karen> ...question of whether to have a meeting on 23 December
14:07:37 <sandro> next meetings: 9 Dec 2009, 23 Dec 2009??
14:07:48 <sandro> kevin: Shall we meet 23 December?
14:07:56 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:07:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.731.aaaa, Karen, +49.178.404.aadd, ??P8, +1.703.362.aaee, +1.509.464.aaff, +0789422aagg (muted), +1.303.748.aahh (muted), Sandro
14:08:23 <Rachel> No mtg on 12/23
14:08:30 <hg> pass
14:08:33 <tb> ok
14:09:07 <sandro> Kevin: Okay, no mtg 12/23
14:09:44 <sandro> NEXT MEETINGS: 09 December, 06 January, 20 January.
14:09:56 <sandro> Kevin: Agenda adjustments?
14:10:15 <sandro> cory: I'd like to about what we're doing
14:10:21 <sandro> kevin: Sure, at the end.
14:10:40 <Karen> Cory Casenave, OMG would like to provide update
14:10:42 <sandro> sam: I'm here from
14:11:00 <sandro> kevin: scribe for next meeting?
14:11:47 <Karen> Sandro: We should probably revive the scribe list!
14:12:02 <sandro> NEXT SCRIBE: Kevin
14:12:10 <sandro> topic: Introducing the Projects Page
<sandro> Summary: Sandro drafted a skeletal page about our [[Projects]].  Please review it and fill it in more about the projects you care about! 
14:12:35 <Karen> Sandro: Various discussion about what activities the eGov Interest Group should do
14:12:42 <Karen> ...Some consensus about the menu of projects
14:12:52 <sandro>
14:12:53 <josema> sam, I have to apologize, I forgot to add openjurist to the agenda, sorry
14:12:56 <Karen> ...but not clear about which ones have people willing to sign up for actions
14:13:14 <Karen> ...I tried to use a "formalism"
14:13:18 <Karen> describe each project
14:13:28 <Karen> ...who are people involved, target audience, what is problem they are having.
14:13:38 <Karen> ...what does it look like if problem is solved, 
14:13:45 <Karen> ...description, status
14:13:55 <Karen> ...I did some answering on a few, but not much
14:14:04 <Karen> ...put names and short description
14:14:17 <Karen> ...If people will look at page over next week, and fill in the details about those questions
14:14:27 <Karen> ...Once filled in, we'll take to the mailing list
14:14:32 <Karen> ...and start asking people to sign up and vote
14:14:38 <Karen> ...maybe we would do a Web-based poll
14:14:43 <Karen> ...See which ones have critical mass
14:14:49 <Karen> ...and go ahead and start working on them
14:14:54 <Karen> Kevin: We have Group Charter for next eyar
14:15:01 <Karen> ...and an actvity plan
14:15:09 <Karen> ...fairly broad activities and structure
14:15:16 <Karen> ...but we want to get more measurable and focused
14:15:34 <Karen> ...hope to get from our 150 people to get behind these different areas
14:15:40 <Karen> ...I talked about this on a call about a month ago
14:15:46 <Karen> ...Reviewing these five or six areas
14:15:52 <Karen> ...Sandro has incorporated this into these points
14:16:05 <Karen> ...We wanted to get the group feedback and to help structure
14:16:18 <Karen> ...and decide how to reach our objectives
14:16:30 <Karen> ...We can talk now, or ping me or Sandro with your opinions
14:16:38 <Karen> ...That wiki page allows for group editing
14:16:45 <Karen> Sandro: Yes, please edit this page directly
14:16:52 <Karen> ...if you think you have an answer or refinement
14:16:58 <Karen> ...Email me if you have trouble using the wiki
14:17:03 <Karen>
14:17:16 <Karen> Kevin: Any initial comments about the wiki page?
14:17:32 <Karen> ...We are also looking for leads for those areas
14:17:43 <Karen> ...If you want to take lead and work with a task group, please let us know
14:17:49 <sandro> List of all wiki accounts:
14:18:37 <Karen> Cory: I am in a car, so reading off the list would be helpful
14:18:43 <Karen> ...just the title of the projects
14:19:01 <Karen> Sandro: So, first one is "Government Linked Data, Techniques and Technologies"
14:20:36 <ChrisBeer> I believe I put my hand up for Best Practice last Call, however I'm happy to also do general Web stuff for the group, given that's my day-to-day anyway
14:20:44 <Karen> Brian: How do we express interest?
14:20:52 <Karen> Kevin: Send an email to one of chairs or Sandro
14:20:59 <Karen> Sandro: email to:
14:21:02 <sandro> email to
14:21:12 <Zakim> - +1.703.362.aaee
14:21:14 <Karen> Sandro: Or put it on the wiki
14:21:40 <Zakim> + +1.703.362.aaii
14:22:00 <sandro> kevin: The first year, we tried three task groups, but the mission was very broad
14:22:01 <Karen> Kevin: We started with three task groups first of year, but we were too broad
14:22:30 <ChrisBeer> I note that in this round there is little in Education and Outreach?
14:22:55 <sandro> kevin: We're listening to those in govt who are asking us for things, eg archiving, gov 1.0 issues
14:23:59 <Karen> Sandro: Chris asks about Education and Outreach piece
14:24:18 <ChrisBeer> Just in the sense that the current TF items are OD focused.
14:24:25 <sandro> Kevin: re E&O, GLD and E&O are the main areas of our charter, but E&O is not necessary a project in itself
14:24:50 <sandro> kevin: There the editoral task force, and the comm team.
14:25:19 <sandro> kevin: Each group has an Editorial and Comms angle, they are each doing some E&O
14:25:43 <Karen> Cory: What are the landing pages for this?
14:25:52 <sandro> cory: What is the Landing Page for Linked Open Data in Government.
14:26:27 <sandro> kevin: We're working on next generation website for eGov.   We're not there yet.
14:27:04 <sandro> kevin: I took an action item to review the work done so far, and see how to restructure the wiki, so we can begin with that.
14:27:09 <josema> for example, I see Web Tech and some of GLD Strategy as part of E&O area
14:27:50 <sandro> kevin: We had ambitious goals to get that done before the Gov2.0 summit, but due to various other changes in staffing and other people's projects, that didn't happen, but I think now we're back on track to have this happen before the holidays.
14:28:19 <Karen> Sandro: Does anyone have anything else to say about the Projects Page?
14:28:25 <Karen> ...Then we'll move onto the Web site discussion
14:28:50 <Karen> Brian: After more people look at it, we can pick it up 9 Dec.
14:28:50 <josema> chair: kevin
14:29:12 <sandro> topic: Web Site
14:29:16 <josema> +1 to Brian
14:29:35 <Karen> Cory: I would like a persistent journal for LOD in Gov't
14:29:47 <Karen> ...external links and landing page to collect overviews, white papers, success stories
14:30:28 <ChrisBeer> Can we collaborate work with LOD Project in this? Joint web space?
14:30:34 <sandro> kevin: Yes, we're very open to folks helping with the content.
14:31:15 <sandro> Interesting question ChrisBeer.     Maybe easiest to have some of them join the IG.
14:32:03 <josema> original plan was to have some LOD people joining this group, have a specific TF working on LGD
14:34:03 <ChrisBeer> @Jose - if no one else is already a LoD member, I can join list and post a recruitment blurb?
14:31:39 <sandro> Topic: What's going on / coming up
14:32:01 <sandro> subtopic: FOSE 2010
14:32:11 <sandro> panel like at gov 2.0 summit
14:32:17 <sandro> kevin: I'll be leading up interop
14:32:26 <sandro> kevin: Daniel and John will be on it, too.
14:32:39 <hg> Collaboration is good - already many places to put things - LOD, OK, ...
14:32:42 <sandro> kevin: I was happy to have that panel approved.
14:33:18 <josema> yup, kudos and thx Karen, Vera for all the help and support
14:31:55 <sandro> subtopic: Gov 2.0 Expo
14:33:22 <sandro> karen: I'm invited to be on the program committee for Gov 2.0 Expo, so I'll have more on that soon.
14:34:16 <Zakim> +??P9
14:34:18 <sandro> kevin: I'd like to refocus back on international issues; we've talked mostly about US and UK recently.   We have other countries represented in IG, and I'd like their voices expressed at the Expo
14:34:48 <sandro> kevin: Let's get some proposals to get that word out.
14:34:49 <tb> end of may in greece, submit abstracts till 15, Dec
14:35:09 <Karen> Sandro: There are a few other agenda items, like W3C's TPAC
14:35:09 <sandro> subtopic: TPAC 2009
14:35:33 <owen> owen has joined #egov
14:35:41 <sandro> kevin: Alas, I got the flu and couldn't travel, so the eGov panel at TPAC was cancelled
14:35:54 <sandro> karen: 1-1 followup with individuals
14:35:59 <ChrisBeer> I have some good e-gov contacts here in Aust - I can certainly pass the word along
14:36:06 <josema> @ChrisBeer certainly, although I believe we have a few around already (Leigh Dodds and Jim Hendler come to mind)
14:36:21 <ChrisBeer> @jose nps
14:36:32 <sandro> karen: Definitely interest, but not clear for some folks how to plug in, so focus on projects is good.
14:37:20 <sandro> Kevin: I'm working on a byline piece for NextGov, to clarify my controversial statements about PDF
14:38:13 <sandro> kevin: Alan Morison from PWC is doing a piece on DataWeb as OS, . . . find him on twitter or msg me.
14:38:40 <sandro> subtopic: ISWC
14:38:41 <Karen> Sandro: Int'l Semantic Web Conference (ISWC)
14:38:52 <Karen> ...I met Daniel and Cory there
14:38:59 <Karen> ...we talked for a while, along with some others
14:39:04 <Karen> ...nothing formally related to eGov
14:39:07 <Zakim> + +1.410.992.aajj
14:39:19 <Karen> ...ISWC was near Washington, DC, so convenient location
14:39:28 <Karen> Cory: I did a presentation on linked open data architecture
14:39:42 <Karen> ...I think there was one other eGov focused presentation, but not a specific track
14:39:44 <sandro> (Also George, and Brand)
14:39:55 <joec> joec has joined #egov
14:39:57 <Karen> ...we are interested in more outreach here
14:40:14 <Karen> ...and action items to further the LOD for Open Gov't initiatives going on now
14:40:32 <Karen> ...George Thomas, myself, Brand Niemann involved, a few others
14:41:12 <Karen> q+
14:41:15 <sandro> Hg: the NYT announcement at ISWC of them doing LD version of their structure -- that's probably pretty important.
14:41:25 <sandro> hg: good when talking to Gov folks.
14:41:38 <sandro> ack Karen
14:41:55 <ChrisBeer> We just had a e-Gov mashup conference and competition here in Aust. under the auspices of Gov 2.0 Taskforce. Very successful, saw a lot interagency/private/ngo contact. Mashup competition certainly got people excited.
14:42:38 <sandro> karen: The Guardian is also doing a big LD project.   So we may want to look at publishing side more.     Media Properties are active here.
14:42:54 <sandro> Hg: NYT is already doing the LD landgrab
14:43:27 <ChrisBeer> - prehaps we could do similar as outreach?
14:43:34 <sandro> Cory: I also thought that was a great announcement.  Maybe we can do a use case / success story.
14:43:46 <Karen> Sandro: Any upcoming events
14:43:50 <sandro> subtopic: Open Knowledge Foundation event [13 Nov 2009, London]
14:43:58 <Karen> ...Does anyone know?
14:44:04 <Karen> Hg: 
14:44:15 <josema>
14:44:35 <josema> (I was not in attendance)
14:44:48 <sandro> Hg: Linked Data meets Open Knowledge.    Highly interactive, quite good.   The Open Knowledge enjoyed the linked data side.   Good bridging.
14:45:18 <sandro> Hg: Some pushback from eGov and OpenKnowledge giving a little pushback on RDF.   About 40 people from various places.    Good discussion.
14:45:33 <ChrisBeer> q+
14:45:41 <sandro> ack ChrisBeer 
14:46:01 <ChrisBeer> Managing the Australian Governments IT Requirements - 8 Dec 2009
14:46:01 <anne> anne has joined #egov
14:46:02 <ChrisBeer>
14:46:30 <ChrisBeer> will report back, includes addresses from Aust. Gov 2.0 taskforce and others
14:46:58 <sandro> subtopic: Jurix Conference
14:47:10 <sandro> sandro: anyone?
14:48:12 <owen>
14:48:31 <sandro> brian: Jurix is a european conference about legal matters; I don't know more than their website
14:49:05 <sandro> brian: specifically judicial branch
14:47:32 <sandro> subtopic: PdF Europe 2009
14:48:46 <josema> I spoke at PdF Europe 2009, gave a "weird" talk, a tale about transparency
14:48:46 <josema>
14:49:31 <josema> conference was interesting with several strategy talks and discussions
14:49:56 <josema> several projects from activists was also presented, many well known such as
14:50:22 <josema> networking was the best part, lots of discussion between gov people, NGOs, etc.
14:50:02 <sandro> Topic: Discussion: Government Linked Data, Techniques and Technologies
<sandro> Summary: Sam Deskin described what Open Jurist is doing, using Calias to extract semantic information from public legal records in the US, and their plans to make it available publicly.   Lively discussion about how to do this and related issues.
14:51:30 <sandro> sandro: (reads agenda text on this)
14:52:43 <sandro> sam: How much is this about open jurist?
14:52:56 <sandro> sandro: It's here for general discussion
14:53:20 <sandro> sam: Shall I give Open Jurist as a discussion point?
14:54:12 <sandro> sam: Open Jurist is website with about 650,000 supreme court, appelate court, and district court cases, from the 1700s to current -- open data, freely available
14:54:26 <sandro> sam: What we're going that's a bit different is 
14:54:49 <sandro> ... We've gone through with Calais, and identified 14m semantic terms: people's name, places, occupations, etc.
14:54:57 <sandro> ... many different categories
14:55:13 <sandro> ... we plan on using these semantic points to let people access the data in new and different ways
14:55:26 <sandro> ... the cases are currently linked to each as they refer to each other
14:55:32 <josema> s/from activists was/from activists were
14:55:42 <Zakim> +??P15
14:55:48 <sandro> ... our next phase is to put US Code up on the web, and link to that
14:55:57 <sandro> ... so we'll have both code law and case law
14:56:06 <sandro> ... then we want to bring in the semantic web
14:56:19 <sandro> ... i'm an attorney, not a semantic web expert
14:56:26 <sandro> ... we'd like to do it right and do it well
14:56:40 <sandro> ... so we're looking for how to do that, to make it most useful to people
14:57:21 <sandro> kevin: Maybe talk to Joe Carmel.   He's taken US Code data (rosetta stone) and done something interesting
14:57:43 <sandro> joe: Let's talk off line about that.
14:58:03 <sandro> kevin: Joe is an incredible resource
14:58:11 <josema> zakim, code?
14:58:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), josema
14:58:15 <sandro> sam: We've "semanticised" these cases
14:58:40 <sandro> sam: We hope to be able to link things together in ways they haven't been linked before.    Names, dates, ....
14:58:55 <sandro> sam: So we can order and connect all the cases that are about John Hamilton
14:59:06 <Zakim> + +03498429aakk
14:59:15 <sandro> sam: We've got a long way to go
14:59:24 <josema> zakim, aakk is me
14:59:24 <Zakim> +josema; got it
15:00:11 <Karen> Sandro: I haven't used Calais
15:00:18 <Karen> ...I believe they have a set of identifiers they use
15:00:26 <Karen> ...not sure if they let you use your own
15:02:49 <Karen> Sandro: It seems Sam is focused on the user experience
15:03:00 <Karen> ...not the underlying technology of how RDF is available
15:03:39 <sandro> sam: we got it from
15:03:54 <sandro> joe: not from law revision council?
15:05:09 <sandro> sam: people have done this linking between cases, and cases-and-code, but we're not sure folks have done it for free before
15:05:27 <sandro> sam: and we're trying to make it available in new and different ways
15:06:49 <sandro> sam: Our goal is to make the data useful in ways that are not available now.    EG: show me all the cases from the 1960s that mention ACLU and that are about securing the release of inmates in overcrowded prisons and that the ACLU won, and tell me which states the ACLU won.
15:07:03 <sandro> sam: And then How do those cases affect crime in those states vs other states
15:07:11 <sandro> (WOW, I like that use case!)
15:07:35 <Karen> Sandro: That sounds like a great thing to do
15:07:45 <Karen> Brian: Sam, any future plans to include the underlying briefs?
15:07:52 <Karen> ...Recent ABA decisions
15:07:59 <Karen> ...have a connection through US Supreme Court
15:08:09 <Karen> that briefs, amicus briefs, are available in PDF
15:08:14 <Karen> at least info is available
15:08:18 <Karen> ...any plans to go deeper?
15:08:25 <Karen> ...would help public, not just lawyers
15:08:33 <Karen> judicial system works even more seems helpful
15:08:41 <Karen> ...seems you are also going to look at connecting up with
15:08:50 <Karen> ...taking deeper and more information seems a useful resource
15:08:54 <sandro> q?
15:08:58 <Karen> Sam: I am completely open to other sources
15:09:04 <Karen> ...and pulling more things in, linking to more things
15:09:13 <Karen> ...I was not aware of the amicus briefs that the ABA has
15:09:17 <Karen> ...I will search on Google
15:09:23 <Karen> Brian: I'll give you my email
15:09:46 <sandro> brian:
15:09:47 <Karen> ...Very interesting project; I'm an attorney as well, but no technical experience
15:10:00 <Karen> Sam: Finding the data is a big hurdle
15:10:01 <anne> This is perfect case study. How do we give someone like Sam the best technology advice?
15:10:04 <Karen> ...I don't know where the data is
15:10:08 <anne> so he can talk data types and identifiers.
15:10:15 <Karen> ...I just found out that Google has managed to get every state's case law
15:10:23 <Karen> ...We go back to 1700's for the Federal Gov't
15:10:29 <Karen> ...We have been looking for this stuff forever
15:10:33 <Karen> ...We're not Google
15:10:37 <Karen> ...If it's out there, it's out there
15:10:46 <Karen> Brian: I think they use Google Scholar; go to advance search
15:10:54 <Karen> Sam: I've seen their data, but not sure where they got it from
15:11:04 <Karen> Brian: There are projects in Colorado on getting historical information
15:11:10 <Karen> ...Some of law schools doing that
15:11:28 <Karen> Sam: Cases we have from 1700's and 1800's are PDFs online
15:11:32 <Karen> ...readable online
15:11:43 <Karen> ...the OCR of them
15:11:45 <Karen> ...are crap
15:12:00 <Karen> ...So actually being able to search and find what you are looking for is a shot in the dark
15:12:09 <Karen> ...I don't know too many other people are putting this stuff up there
15:12:13 <Karen> ...We are trying our best
15:12:18 <Karen> ...dealing with what we have got
15:12:24 <Karen> or .og
15:12:35 <Karen> ...has information like audio recordings of Supreme Court cases
15:12:38 <Karen> ...from inside the court
15:12:42 <sandro>
15:12:46 <Karen> ...We have toyed with linking to that as well
15:12:58 <Karen> ...we are on the beginning of uphill climb on a large mountain
15:13:04 <Karen> Brian: It is .org
15:13:27 <Karen> Sam: First priority is to make available to the public
15:13:30 <Karen> they know it's out there
15:13:36 <Karen> ...then make available to other uses
15:13:44 <Karen> ...any thoughts there?
15:13:49 <sandro> sam: using drupal
15:13:51 <Karen> ...We are running system on DRUPAL
15:14:14 <Karen> Sandro: Someone id themselves?
15:14:19 <sandro> zakim, aagg is Hugh
15:14:19 <Zakim> +Hugh; got it
15:14:26 <sandro> ack hugh
15:14:28 <sandro> ack
15:14:31 <sandro> ack aagg
15:14:35 <Karen> +1 fabulous use case
15:14:41 <sandro> ack +0789422aagg
15:15:09 <sandro> hg: This is a great use case.   The first thing you need is give IRIs to the things you want to identify
15:15:11 <owen> mib_ymI9i4 is Owen Ambur
15:15:41 <sandro> sam: So each term has a web page people can go to?
15:15:56 <sandro> hg: Probably, but in our world there's RDF behind each page
15:16:40 <sandro> sam: the RDF from calais doubled our database after just going through 10%
15:17:01 <sandro> hg: technical questions about how to represent the RDF
15:17:36 <sandro> hg: What you now have is a whole bunch of RDF; some technical issues there.   You've done a lot of the hard work, extracting the RDF.  Now the question is how you publish it, making it available.
15:17:50 <sandro> hg: There are two overlapping ways to make it available
15:18:54 <sandro> sam: we have a huge list of medical conditions extracted, for instance
15:19:08 <sandro> hg: The kind of complex query you're talking about is where SPARQL would come in
15:19:24 <sandro> hg: SPARQL enables systems to make those sorts of queries.
15:19:44 <sandro> hg: So you might give a nice page to users, but then how to do you do it?   Use SPARQL.
15:19:57 <sandro> q?
15:20:52 <Karen> Sandro: There is this issue in RDF
15:21:03 <Karen> have all these diseases, like skin cancer
15:21:13 <Karen> ...and a Web page on your site about skin cancer, and that page will have a URL
15:21:24 <Karen> ...but also internally there has to be a differnt URI that IDs skin cancer
15:21:30 <Karen> join to other data about skin cancer
15:21:35 <Karen> ...that needs to be different
15:21:41 <Karen> ...every concept has two URLs
15:21:48 <Karen> internal knowledge representations
15:21:56 <Karen> ...and the other the user interface about the thing
15:22:02 <Karen> ...This is what you come across working with RDF
15:22:08 <Karen> does get tricky some times
15:22:11 <Karen> ...ways to make them usable
15:22:28 <Karen> Sam: the one internal knowledge based page, is like an XML page?
15:22:41 <Karen> Sandro: That internal is identifier, not necessarily a page
15:22:49 <Karen> could present a page of data or present SPARQL
15:22:57 <Karen> ? who is speaking?
15:23:07 <Karen> Sandro: Like a data base key, an ID number
15:23:18 <Karen> Joe: When you want to refer to skin cancer, you refer to that ID
15:23:25 <Karen> ...all the skin cancers have that common iD
15:23:31 <Karen> you can still refer to that ID
15:23:38 <Karen> Sandro: You can use same ID as Wikipedia
15:23:45 <josema>
15:23:45 <Karen> ...or say the two are same as and connects the data
15:23:57 <Karen> ...Is there a place on Wikipedia?
15:24:02 <sandro>
15:24:04 <Karen> Sandro: dBpedia 
15:24:21 <Karen> ...If you play with dbpedia, you will see the URLs and those that parallel them
15:24:26 <Karen> Joe: The same?
15:24:33 <hg>
15:24:33 <Karen> Sandro: No, generating their own IDs
15:24:39 <Karen> Jose: So a separate URi
15:24:48 <Karen> ...just point to Wikipedia as one of the resources
15:24:51 <Karen> Sandro: Exactly
15:24:57 <Karen> ...Hugh just pasted the URI
15:25:07 <Karen> Sandro: Log will be availble and I will email
15:25:08 <Karen> q+
15:25:16 <sandro> ack Karen 
15:25:44 <josema> I love this discussion since it really reflects what is happening out there and the role this group can play in helping people
15:25:52 <sandro> karen: This has been a fascinating discussion, both technically, and the legal stuff.    I'm interesting in comm side.
15:26:13 <Karen> Sandro: Mostly we use the mailing list
15:26:23 <sandro> sam: I sent an e-mail about this on Nov 5.
15:26:34 <sandro> sam: "open jurist" e-mail
15:26:55 <Zakim> - +1.509.464.aaff
15:27:04 <sandro> joe: One of our goals is to prepare a product that help gov't prepare their data for folks like open jurist
15:27:09 <Karen> +1
15:27:10 <anne> +1 Joe carmel and kevin
15:27:13 <josema> sam's openjurist intro message:
15:27:35 <josema> +1
15:28:16 <sandro> sam: It seems like if you have deep enough pockets (eg Google) the data is out there!        Maybe they got the case books and scanned them.   That's way beyond our financial capacity.
15:29:03 <sandro> brian: You often have to pay to look up the information, from a secondary source that's republishing.
15:29:25 <josema> this scanning part reminds me somewhat of LoC's Chronicling America <> but no idea if they are planning on doing any LOD
15:29:44 <sandro> joe: The gov't isn't providing the data in a good format, so folks have to use these 3rd party secondary sources.
15:29:57 <Karen> When Sandro and I attended O'Reilly Gov 2.0 Summit, Carl Malamud was very keen on getting law data public
15:30:11 <sandro> (Carl was a keynote speaker)
15:30:19 <Karen> He is against paying for so much public legal data
15:30:36 <sandro> kevin: Sam, why don't you re-send your e-mail.
15:30:48 <sandro> kevin: Good, energizing discussion.   :-)
15:31:03 <sandro> kevin: Please review the Project page and help us keep things moving forward
15:31:16 <sandro> kevin: Lots of gov't contacting us, US Gov't meetings
15:31:24 <josema> thanks so much, kevin, sandro, karen for taking care of chairing and scribing; apologies again
15:31:28 <sandro> kevin: The faster we are, the better we'll be able to help.
15:31:39 <Karen> Sandro: No action items
15:32:47 <Karen> Sam: We would welcome additional sources of funding; we are self-funding currently
15:33:13 <sandro> sam: We are doing this self-funded.   We plan on figuring out a way to monetize this, without ever charging for access to the cases.   If there is some source of funding to encourage this kind of stuff, that would be helpful, so we could scale this much faster!   We're doing it ourselves because it's useful and fun an interesting, but we could push it faster with outside help/funding, so we could hire the right developers, get servers, etc!
15:33:35 <sandro> on irc josema believes Sunlight funds some projects like this from time to time, maybe others do the same
15:34:21 <sandro> kevin: google and a library - no money, but an access deal
15:34:34 <sandro> kevin: John Needham
15:34:37 <Zakim> -??P15
15:34:52 <Zakim> - +1.703.362.aaii
15:34:54 <sandro> ADJOURN
15:35:02 <Zakim> - +1.303.748.aahh
15:35:07 <Zakim> - +1.202.731.aaaa
15:35:08 <hg> Thanks guys - good discussion.
15:35:09 <Zakim> -Karen
15:35:11 <Zakim> -??P8
15:35:11 <Zakim> - +49.178.404.aadd
15:35:12 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:35:13 <Zakim> - +1.410.992.aajj
15:35:13 <Zakim> -hg
15:35:16 <sandro> indeed.  thanks all!
15:35:20 <Zakim> -??P9
15:35:22 <Zakim> -josema
15:35:22 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended
15:35:23 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.202.731.aaaa, +0789422aabb, +0789422aacc, Karen, +49.178.404.aadd, +1.703.362.aaee, +1.509.464.aaff, +0789422aagg, +1.303.748.aahh, Sandro, +1.703.362.aaii,
15:35:25 <Zakim> ... +1.410.992.aajj, +03498429aakk, josema, hg
15:35:27 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:36:26 <anne> disconnect