scribe+
Rachael: Lisa and Julie are unavailable today, so I will be chairing
Rachael: Levels will be discussed
tomorrow in the accessibility guidelines working group meeting
...Background: 2 day meeting a few weeks ago
... 1st idea with support: additional document(s) which
compliance and laws could point to, in addition to WCAG
... Key idea: in addition to requirements there could be a
recommendation to those with legal authority point to a process
type standard
... 2nd idea with support: concept of scoring. A presentation
by Alastair and others.
... They compared scoring with work people had done to see how
they match true accessibility of a site.
... 3rd idea: having more than 2 levels of conformance.
... Big question with 3rd idea: how would this work?
... More than 2 levels - how would provisions be assigned to
those levels?
... This is what will be discussed in tomorrow's meeting.
... Based on this there will be more conversations coming up in
the next few weeks.
... Questions?
<LenB> Don't have questions - ust not sure which idea is the strongest.
Rachael: it may be a combination of ideas
Len: once things are locked in there may be legal people interested in this
Rachael: We need more people to
vote on the animation and movement issues
... so far only 2 votes ...1st: user controls
<Rachael> User controls are currently missing in WCAG 3 to pause, stop or hide all moving and scrolling content https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jLkvaCNxpk1xJ-yuyTWciizRe3GkGWPc-3yu6ZJLIqg/edit?pli=1&tab=t.7btf7qjplo1i#heading=h.ltmyw9crojam ...2nd: 5 seconds of motion
<Rachael> 5 seconds of motion and pseudo-motion should not be allowed. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jLkvaCNxpk1xJ-yuyTWciizRe3GkGWPc-3yu6ZJLIqg/edit?pli=1&tab=t.7btf7qjplo1i#heading=h.ug544rrtrwde
Len: it would be helpful to
review during this meeting
... Please vote today if the group feels comfortable
... User control first
... Some aspects missed in WCAG, questions about autoplay
connection
... (reads from issue description)
... Trying to balance: section about user control - reduced
motion settings
... This is another reason we thought it was covered, but in
conversations we learned that not everything which could happen
on a page are covered
... Sections have this need missing
... Autoplaying audio is covered, but not visual things,
animations
... If you think of another COGA issue which has aspects
missing, please note this. We can look into it in the
future.
... Paralax is not in there
... Goal is to give the user control
... Any questions?
John K: Are we missing something covering responsibility and understanding of controls?
scribe: If it is being done in a
non-standard way?
... Will users understand how to stop it?
Rachael: A hard part with writing
these - findability should be separated out.
... Assertions for some aspects.
Len: Nearby, approximate - these are themes which continue to come up.
<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#expected-behavior
Len: User controls does not seem to have a definition of proximity.
<Jan> I am assuming that in the proposal for pause, stop, hide, there is nothing in there about being able to get to the control within 3 tab stops? That is the 508 requirement. Is there a reason why we would not want something similar?
Rachael: In the section related to all sections, regardless of where they are applied.
Len: given that this is not part of the animation subgroup, how best to proceed?
Rachael: I would add a note to
the subgroup about that - an issue in github to ensure someone
is addressing co-location.
... Or open a new location.
... correction open a new github issue
Jennie: ensure to break down
based on COGA information on executive function the aspects of
colocation, findability, and understandability
... including unique ones and future inventions
... memory
John K: I would put attention in there as well
Len: Issue 3: 5 sections of
motion...
... 5 seconds can be too long for some people
... Some people are already physically responding
... This is really prevalent in the digital space
... We need to find why that number was selected.
... Static images can feel like motion sometimes
... The 5 seconds assumes that the system does something
... By the time you understand what is happening, it is too
late
... Epilepsy is not the only user group needing this
... We want the user to initiate it
... Let the user know it is going to happen
... Any questions?
Jennie: Rachael's comment says pseudomotion is not allowed
Len: that's great.
Tiffany: Even if we can have some things added, expanding it past gifs, that would be good.
Len: Yes I think you are right - these are techniquest the subgroup could discuss
<Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to say pseudomotion is not allowed
Rachael: I think you can file
this issue
... This is intended that no pseudomotion is allowed.
Period.
... I think there may be a harder time getting no motion at all
past the full requirement
... It may need additional research
... To show it needs to be a core requirement
Len: I think this group is
willing to do that.
... This makes us lean in on the user control section.
... There is more and more content moving around.
John K: Talk more about pseudomotion
scribe: It looks like motion but is not motion, correct?
Rachael: that is correct.
... More than 5 seconds of motion
Len: Please drop in your comment
Jennie: there is an aspect related to keeping attention that if addressed could support the work.
<tiffanyburtin> Thank you for bringing this up Jennie
Len: Is this in response to what Rachael said and to provide context?
Jennie: It depends
<Rachael> Jennie: I think some advertisers require motion to keep attention so we may need to address this in a way that allows for people to do what they need and still address these concerns which are important.
<Rachael> Jennie: The github issues say we are flagging an issue. The research backs it up based on the descriptors of people with disabilities. Where COGA may need to address more strategic efforts is to address the reason people put this type of problematic content at all. May help to include the use cases of the reasons its increasing...
<Rachael> ...then add examples of how it could be remedied or ways that put user control in that doesn't block the greater communities use case.
<Rachael> ...that would help people write it in a way that makes it acore requirement.
<Rachael> +1
<Rachael> scribe+
Jennifer: I am fully in support
but need to understand pseudomotion more
... The definition is really general
... Skeleton screens?
... Offering a view of what may be loading
<Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to answer jennifer
Rachael: different
scenarios.
... Paralax - parts of screens moving in different directions,
or feel like it
... There can be the results of pseudomotion
... Then there are the ones Jennie brought up which look like
motion
Jennifer: loading screens - spinning animation?
Rachael: I think that is why it is there
Jennifer: ok
... I think about - what is the alternative be, that would be
good
Rachael: The other way you could
deal with this is to leave the 5 seconds of motion here, but
ensure there is a core requirement ensuring that if someone has
motion turned off it is never provided
... And there could be a trigger warning
... for any motion, at all.
Jennifer: that makes total sense to me
<Rachael> Jennie: So the challenge with the video content on web is individuals come to the content without goign to the launching web page itself. May be to add into the requirements for video that includes pseudomotion. That the information about pseudomotion must be included at the beginning of the video.
Rachael: If giving this to
another subgroup you could give some of the recommendations to
the group, but you don't have to have all of the
solutions
... Please think about this, add comments and notes
Rachael: Then the group on
Thursday can consider it
... will enough people be able to attend to ensure those can
happen
<Jan> I cannot meet on Thursday
Jennie: -1 to attendence
John K: I cannot confirm at this time
<Jan> +1
<tiffanyburtin> I cannot attend on Thursday.
<Rachael> We will cancel this week's meetings
Rachael: we will cancel these meetings
<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/wbs/35422/wcag3-provision-survey-03/
Rachael: Provision review
... We send the survey out for people to respond to
... You can focus on the question
... If it says "Review" it is a full review.
... Provide comments if you want to
... (Rachael continued reviewing the survey)
... We are asking that you provide comments even if it is
"something else, don't have time to expand right now"
... This is open until the 30th
<Zakim> Jennie, you wanted to discuss holiday schedule
<Rachael> Jennie: Is there clarity on the holiday schedule for the week of the June 29th and July 6th?
<Rachael> Rachael: No. But I will ask Julie.
Rachael: Other topics or questions?
Tiffany: Thank you to Rachael for chairing!
<Jan> Thanks, Rachael and Len!
<Rachael> rssagent, generate minutes
<Rachael> rssagent, make minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Default Present: Jennifer, Jennie, tiffanyburtin, kirkwood, LenB Present: Jennifer, Jennie, tiffanyburtin, kirkwood, LenB No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: Jennie Inferring Scribes: Jennie WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth WARNING: No date found! Assuming today. (Hint: Specify the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.) Or specify the date like this: <dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]