Meeting minutes
<JJ> > agenda+ 2.5.3 Label in Name updated proposal
<JJ> zakim nominate a scribe
<JJ> nominate a scribe
<JJ> Zakim propose a scribe
<JJ> propose a scribe
2.4.2 Page Titled updated proposal
<JJ> w3c/
<JJ> PR: w3c/
@jj most people have already voted, but folks can still leave reviews
@jj we have 4 thumbs up on the comment and 1 approval on the PR, so we'll give it a couple more days then merge if no more feedback comes in
3.1.1 Language of Page updated proposal
<JJ> w3c/
<JJ> PR: w3c/
JJ we also have 4 thumbs up on the comment for this one and 2 approvals, so same applies we'll check for any additional feedback then move on
2.5.3 Label in Name updated proposal
<JJ> PR: https://
JJ this PR has 3 approvals and no reactions for the comment, but we had a previous poll where most people were happy, and we just made some minor adjustments. we'll send out the deadline for any more feedback, otherwise merge it next week
pauljadam when multiple controls are group, labels may be exposed as custom accessibility actions on the parent rather than combined into the name. concerned on whether this is sufficient
JJ we've previously discussed that accessibility actions don't exist on the web, but do for both iOS and Android. we saw a gap in WCAG for this with list of cards items that have multiple icons associated that act as controls. for iOS and Android you can have ATs focus only on the grouped item instead of each individual control and use actions to
access them. the problem becomes that the card is the control instead, so you need to name them.
pauljadam the actions are different than the name, so you could have both the name and the action. what happens when the nested controls are visible text instead of icons? concerned that this goes beyond what the success criterion says.
JJ the problem arises that issues are being flagged when mobile apps are following Apple best practices
pauljadam I'd recommend this is part of a technique not at note on the success criterion
JJ some of the biggest gap with WCAG for mobile is accessibility grouping which gets positive feedback for user experience
Joe_Humbert I don't think the actions have to be included in the name unless the actions have visible text or icons
JJ thinking of the card example where you have icons like delete, favorite, etc, those are labels. this note addresses the scenario where those are grouped
Joe_Humbert there would likely be other accessibility issues in that case like target size
JJ if we are considering Voice Control, they would still be able to activate the grouped actions. for VoiceOver the user would likely prefer to not have to navigate to each individual control
pauljadam this note would allow things to pass which go against WCAG currently
pauljadam I wish we had techniques because how would people know what this means?
<shoobe01> https://
shoobe01 is the above link the definition of grouping we are talking about?
pauljadam no, we are talking about combining focus. like a card in an e-commerce would have multiple controls to add to cart, favorite etc. in mobile we can combine focus of those elements to just the card unlike the web where they would focus each item individually
JJ form grouping if more about indicating that certain fields are all part of a form together
i agree that the user experience is better when controls are grouped, so they don't need to swipe through a bunch of redundant controls
pauljadam when there is something visible, it should be announced to the screen reader. I'm not sure if it would even always say "actions available"
JJ maybe we can find another place for this, but the goal of the task force is to fill gaps where WCAG falls short on mobile accessibility which is what we're trying to do with this note
JJ let's think about this more to see where everyone lands on the opinion of keeping this in or removing it or modifying
2.5.7 Dragging Movements updated proposal
<JJ> PR: w3c/
<pauljadam> For me if our guidance deviates from WCAG then I'd mostly have to continue using WCAG so until we have something like techniques I'm not sure what the difference is between our guidance and WCAG :)
JJ we have 1 thumbs up on the proposal update comment and 2 approvals on the PR
JJ we have an unfinished definition, so we need to somehow mark that we need to get back to that before merging
Software layer definitions
<JJ> https://
I think the Miro invite is expired, it didn't work for me
<JJ> Thx for checking
shoobe01 we had 3 open questions in Miro board, so they are now summarized in a comment on the GitHub issue
shoobe01 first question: should content for the user agent layer be higher in the list?
JJ let's spend some time in this meeting discussing these questions
JJ is the order correct or should we switch content and user agent?
<pauljadam> A defect I fixed in the CVS app is live now on the Coupons section of the app each coupon card has visible CTA actions "Shop this deal" and "Send to card". I fixed the defect by combining the focus of the card and added those CTAs to the a11y actions of the card BUT those visible CTA controls are STILL in the accessible name of the card so
<pauljadam> VoiceOver still says "Shop this deal" and "Send to card" without the user needing to read through each action in the Rotor manually. So the actions are both actions and inside the name of the card too.
shoobe01 this is structurally and technically accurate, but does it support how we are writing SC's and notes? I'm not sure, so wanted to open it up to the group
JJ this can be difficult to visual since AT is provided by the platform, but the user is the one interacting with it
shoobe01 we are illustrating that each layer is responsible for it's accessibility. for example, if you app is responsible for dragging, you must provide a single pointer alternative, but if it was a native operating system, then the OS is responsible. we wanted to include frameworks to differentiate between Flutter rending a component in a canvas
and platform level components provided by the OS.
oops that was JJ speaking above
JJ we also want to clarify the user agent since we have both mobile apps and mobile web
JJ second question: is it correct that the app is in the same layer as the browser?
JJ third question: what is a device and does it include external hardware essential to operation?
JJ I would say the user has the device and the device has AT
shoobe01 yep that's the problem, where do we draw the line between device and AT?
JJ it's a tricky puzzle to solve, but we want to provide guidance on which layer is responsible for what
JJ I sent a message to Rob to see if we can get a new invite link for the Miro board
JJ I will send a reminder with a deadline for feedback on the open PRs, so we can move forward with merging them