Meeting minutes
Date: 2026-04-14
DKA: I wanted to flag an issue about microaggressions and unacceptable behaviors
<amy> Augmenting the wording around micro-aggressions / patronizing behaviour #482
DKA: This is related to issues Jen raised around unconscious bias and what's slipping through the cracks
<amy> s// patronizing/-> patronizing
DKA: Examples are dismissive language that are annoying but don't feel like they rise to the level of CoC issue
… People still feel uncomfortable but don't feel there's anything to do about it
… so it seems like we can augment the microaggressions wording
<DKA> Wendy: I'll take the opposite opinion... I still have trauma... one of the particular problems with that section ... is these kind of in-between behaviours. If it was said once, then ok. But ...
<tzviya> +100 to not relying on CoC for everything
<DKA> ... I do think we have to start transitioning from relying on the CoC covering every possible senario... Our community is full of pedantic people. It's the reason why writing that section last time was so dffficult. One of the demands (from last time) was "what is dismissive" "what is a problematic thing to say" It's contextual.
<DKA> ... We need to start looking at ... talk to the people directly ... sure it come from chairs for sure, but also fellow group members.
<DKA> ... also, we may have to start calling people out.
<DKA> ... letting people know that some behaviours are not appropriate.
DKA: I resonate with what you're saying about it can't only come from chairs
… Amy was telling about an incident where someone reported bullying and no one said anything
… we can't condone that. others in a group should speak up
… it could still be valuable to include info in the CoC to raise points, if it's not in the code then ppl say "its not in the code"
<DKA> Jen: Appreciate you taking up this topic. I cringed when I said adding it to the CoC because I think we need something with more teeth.
<DKA> ... I brought his up with chairs and staff. Staff saying e.g. "it's not quite against the CoC" - because they perceive it "not quite." the person bringing it up is left with the harm - and it's infuriating, when someone is dismissive.
<DKA> ... I see bigotry in my workplace. I see people who have accepted that and internalized it. It's hard to see it all the time. There are people who have so much work to do ... they don't want to spend time on these issues ... so in the mean time we lose people. Someone I spoke to told me that he's heard that the [...] group in W3C is aggressive
<DKA> environment.
<DKA> ... I'm tired of bleeding and nobody gives me anything but a bandaid.
<DKA> ... we need to hear the canaries.
<DKA> ... not at the CoC it needs to be at the level of [power] and there needs to be consequences.
<DKA> Amy: I reflected some feedback I heard about someone being bullied. I do hear what wendy says but I think there might be subtle ways to modify the language. The current language does address it... but e.g. patonizing vs. patronizing and dismissive. My thinking on micro-aggressions ... e.g. we agree to "there shouldn't be insults, slurs" but what we
<DKA> tend to see ...
<DKA> ... is things like made to feel inferior, being shamed, being bullied.
<DKA> ... I've had previous experiences where I've felt sick after inetractions.
<DKA> ... it's about repeated behaviour.
<DKA> ... adding a level for repeated behaviour is importand acknowledging power imbalances helps too.
<Jen> A point I forgot was that I don't want the sickness to get so bad that someone takes their life because of the constant aggression - micro or not.
<DKA> ... calling in vs. calling out. sometimes we have to say "that is not how that works." one phrase about calling out "we don't do that here." That could be the training side of it.
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to agree with wendyreid
<DKA> Tzviya: I agree with Wendy about how challenging it was to get the language right. I wouldn't be against changing the headings. But the code isn't going to change people's behaviour. I think people should be willing to be upstanders.
<amy> wording + training (groups not just chairs)
<DKA> ... I'm hearing form Amy about training. We did the chairs training, it wasn't as popular as I'd hoped.
<DKA> ... Yes, we have people who are dismissive, obnoxious, etc... Can we change people?
<DKA> ... I don't think changing a word in the CoC is going to make a difference. We can try and have more training sessions.
<DKA> Wendy: I massively want to do something about this.... There is a w3c cultural problem. The glass box of politeness. The box that we live within where we can see everything. If you go to any w3c event, etc... inevitably the conversaiton will turn to people's frustration about behaviour / group dynamics. I don't think W3C is special in this way. We
<DKA> have a the particular problem - people agree there is problematic behaviour... and everyone acknowledges it's a thing. There is a cultural thing.
<DKA> ... If you ask people "do we have a culture that discourages calling things out" people will say yes. One way to coutner that is to have a more progressive CoC. We've done that. We now need to take the steps culturally to ... [enforce] the code of conduct. I think we need to start thinking of ways to encourage behaviours. Hey - I'm gonna start
<DKA> calling out behaviour.
<DKA> ... people should know it's ok to say "hey we don't talk like that here." People need to start seeing it to feel empowered to do it.
<amy> 100% re: see it to be empowered
<DKA> Jen: I don't think the CoC changes is where we need to be. We need it to come from the top - from Seth.
<DKA> ... the [things I reported never went anywhere].
<DKA> Jen: we need an initiative that comes from the top that says this matters.
<DKA> ... Each of us has to look at our behaviour and figure out how we need to evolve.
<DKA> ... some people ... might not have the neurotype to be able to change.
<DKA> ... I don't think anyone has been dismissive / biggoted, did it intentionally....
<DKA> ... we need to have this kind of conversation. Thinking about the groups where I don't see this behaviour, they tend to be homogeneous. In APA we have incredible diversity but we have chairs that proacvtively do things to make sure everyone is respected.
<Zakim> amy, you wanted to mention procedures/consquences (eg: Chair to be instated)
<DKA> Amy: One thing I've noticed ... a few people have said.. I've heard from Team who [feel powerless] ... expected to absorb impacts of things. The idea of team as enforcer or not enforcer... One way forward... adding a few things, but middle ground is looking at the enforcement. The procedures could be expanded upon. Maybe "to be a chair you need to
<DKA> go through xyz training"... ? One thing we could look at ... where the code goes into the procedures.
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to make a suggestion
<DKA> Tzviya: I think there are things we should do... Let's head in that direction.
<amy> +1 to adding descriptions of "calling in" as part of procedures. great idea
<DKA> ... I love the idea of documenting... recommendations for how to call someone out. People don't know how to do this. In terms of making training obligatory, it's challenging. But Christine likes it.
<amy> +1 to requiring chairs training
<DKA> ... We can talk to François and Christine about it... Making it required.
<amy> +1 to bystander training
<DKA> ... I would like to think this is going to work. I would love to be able to do more. Bystander training... there are lots of orgs that have bystander training.
<DKA> Amy: "Right to be."
<wendyreid> https://
https://
<DKA> Tzviya: we can encourage that kind of training... share info about it... they offer free training from time to time.
DKA: I don't think it's inevitable that any org of high strung detail oriented nerds becomes this toxic. having engaged in a number of other org, yes, there's always personal issue
… however, I take what Jen said that it needs to come from the top.
… there's a bully pulpit aspect where if Seth said the code was important and we need to treat each other well
… and how we live our lives. + some additional rules/enforcement procedure that have teeth
… however, there's also a cultural aspect. we need to live what we say
… one thing that came to mind. When i learned about "yes, and"
… but it's useful, it makes a conversation that could be very antagonistic or could be "yes, but really..."
… it turns a well actually into a conversation where it turns that into something where we have a different opinion and let's talk
… for me, after incorprating this thing into my arsenal it's improved
… my personal engagement and the overall culture of a group
… i've seen that in other orgs, OpenSSF eg: at the opening of a call, they ask "are there any new friends?"
… a grad student from Ghana may be there. the chair says "great to have you. here's additional resources to learn more about the group".
… that's a cultural thing. it happens across groups. it might have been one chair who did that it filtered
… are there things we can do to impose a culture. do we have a statement of the code
<Zakim> Jen, you wanted to point out that it's about new diversity / inclusion
DKA: i don't know if that helps or not but there may be something that moves the super tanker so to speak
<amy> +1 to changing code, opening meetings with code or reminder that the group behaves respectfully
<DKA> Jen: When the w3c was founded in 1994 it was founded by white men with a degree of power... people who retained that power ... had goodness in their heart about what they wanted to web to be. The people primarily feeling the pain are not white me.
<DKA> ... a lot of what we're daling with here is the increase in diversity ... and our failure to see our own bigotry. We need to take an equity-centered approach.
<DKA> ... for example, I would like the chair to be not a white man.
<DKA> ... it's not easy to be [marginalized].
<DKA> ... When people like me raise what we're seeing, we don't want other people to [have same experiences.] I raised that I don't think staff gets the tools they need to care of themselves.
<DKA> ... everyone on this call has been a sounding board. It takes a lot out of you.
<DKA> ... we need to address it head on. We want to be a diverse organization. We're not doing anything to make a place where diversity is safe.
<DKA> Wendy: I agree it doesn't hurt for Seth to talk about the CoC ... but in W3C I don't think it's a solution ... It's not that dynamic in w3c. Most people most working groups haven't met Seth... don't base what they do on what he says.
<DKA> ... His main point of contact is the AC.
<DKA> ... Having team contacts trained... Would be good.
<DKA> ... We need to start changing the culture interpersonally between partciipants.
<Jen> Greater diversity on staff would help, too: https://
<DKA> ... chairs set the tone, team contacts would help set the tone. We can help set the tone.
<DKA> Tzviya: I'm speaking at the AC meeting last week. Opening talk.
<Jen> Having been an AC rep, it's a LOT OF WORK!
<DKA> ... Next steps with chairs training ... pulling in françois. We haven't done the training for the team yet.
<amy> for next steps I think i also heard (or at least felt) support for some text but also guidance updates
<DKA> ... documenting procedures...
<Jen> Would it be possible to evaluate and make sure staff / team has the support they need?
<DKA> ... if anyone wants to volunteer.
<DKA> ... to help start writing.
ACTION: Jen to start a google doc and share with Amy & Dan to start...
DKA: for those of us who go to the AC. this topic is on my mind and I plan to chat about this to everyone
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to action plan
DKA: i know there are lots of resonance about this. I want to pull some
… this is an AB thing too. I feel on pretty solid firm ground having these conversations
… bc it's about how we work. I plan on having these conversation and to jot down
… what i heard and bring back to this group
Jen: can we do some research. maybe we can do research. clean notes, etc and help guide this
… our org likes evidence based policy making. maybe we can do that as well
… I'd be willing to interview someone who may or may not be capable of changing
Tzviya: there's an issue w/ names, legally
Jen: yes, there's ways to log this, aggregate/disaggregate data. I think we can do it
Tzviya: yes, we know it can be just one or two ppl can really change the feeling around a group. but it' snot everyone
Jen: I really love w3c. i love my conversations w/ ppl including Becket. i've learned so much.
… they are so kind in how they exist in a non-typical way. it's hard to be different
rrsangent, make minutes