Meeting minutes
<JJ> regrest+ shoobe01
Project planning update
<JJ> w3c/
JJ: Worked with Tanja on milestones for publication
… 20% complete
<JJ> https://
<JJ> https://
JJ: (lookin gat githob project view
… any questions?
JJ: Check at what issues you are assigned to - or look at the to-do list and assign yourselves
tafef: Can you speak what you recommend on how to work within the group, what are the practices?
JJ: No strict processes - Steven had the same question
… there is a slack channel
<JJ> To join Slack: https://
<JJ> The channel is #matf
or work on GitHub issues, if you have questions or draft - or send an email to the group
JJ: Or reach out to JJ so he puts it in the agenda
JJ: Maybe we need some guidance how to work, that is still work in progress
Language of Parts voting
JJ: (explaining how to enter Slack channel
<JJ> w3c/
<JJ> Navigate to Files Changed to review the changes
JJ: looking for feedback - if you have no feedback you can approve it
<JJ> https://
JJ: (explaining to review or individually comment in Github) - you need to be added as reviewer
User interface component voting
<JJ> w3c/
<JJ> https://
JJ_ check if you have comments to "user interface component"...
User Agent definition
JJ: Definitions: user agent
JJ: Last meeting there was discussion, comparing to WCAG2ICT - does it need to include mobile apps UA?
Tanya: Analysed what is stated in WCAG2ICT and EN 301 549 and WCAG - like the idea to compare multiple definitions - conclusion is that the notion of UA is not applicable to mobile apps
… EN uses layers of responsibility
… hardware layer outside scope; non-web software has platform software, an umbrella term similar to UA but broader
… reason was likely because UA was introduced for the web context and linked to UAAG referenced in WCAG 2.1 and 2.2
… in mobile apps it does not fall under the definition of UA
Detlev: so mobile OS falls under platform software
<JJ> Detlev: How do you apply this to an app that has web content? Would the app be a user agent for that web content?
Detlev: Does not webview content be presented by the App like a UA?
Tanya: No this would be part of the platform software
Tanya: Following the WCAG2ICT webviews should be treated as platform software
Tanya: If be follow the layers approach, you have platform software (iOS / Android) and the application, the the accessibility services provided by the platform which we cannot influence
Tanya: definition modified / not modified by the author, there are elements that are not influenced by the author if yoused unchanged and would then fall under the platform software layer; if not (i.e. has been changed) it is treated as part of application and be author responsibility
JJ: recap of layers - does the author have control over it, (e.g. gesture recognition)
… platform software: see if elements are rendered by platform software and therefore exempt
JJ: Problem in guidance is the mix of native and mobile, web included in native apps
… last layer application software running on mobile OS
JJ: discussion whether rendering of webviews could be seen as UA inside native app
… biggest change if that latest EN has clarification of web views
Tanya: EN said when in doubt, refer to clause 11
<JJ> User interface rendering research: w3c/
Detlev: raising the question how easy it is to determine of content has been changed by the author or is rendered by the platform layerr
JJ: Has a proposal
JJ: uta the link above
JJ: trying to disambiguate between native and authored renderings
JJ: cross-platform frameworks may lead to native renderings, but might not
JJ: there is a table in that rendering research issue 84
JJ: with Android, only Android views are part of the platform but in prarctice Jetpack compose would also result in native rendering
<RobW> I can't comment on that research from this machine, but I'm not 100% sure that SwiftUI Implementation is correct. Semantics = Jetpack Compose. SwiftUI = AccessibilityNode?
JJ: not putting all the detail JJ explians here into the minutes :) - look at the issue
JJ: It is still difficult to determine id things are rendered natively
Detlev: if you need to ask developers what framework of design environment they used they will expct you to give more specific dev advice
Tanya: We have the same problem - it is impossible to determine if native or authored - but the comment will tell that things might be exempt
… our goal is to make apps as accessible as possible - if devs change the color of a toggle or come back and argue for an exception
<JJ> Tanya: The user agent/platform exception was meant for behavior/colors that cannot be modified by developers
Tanya: The list JJ has worked out, only frameworks that are part of the platform should be included, making the list shorter
<JJ> Tanya: Suggests to exclude "Material Components" from "native" classification
<pauljadam> I've filed a Feedback Assistant issue with Apple for their Wheel Style Pickers not having sufficient text contrast for non-selected options. But that is text contrast and it does not have the user agent exception. Only Apple can fix the issue either way.
Tanya: if we look at the UAs with their own guidelines applying to browsers, but for native this will be provided by the platform software, so feedback should go there
RobW: appreciates Tanya's point on UA and platform that may include a UA.
… wonder if out definition excuses things, let people o fthe hook that would be covered by UA
… as to how do you know if it is rendered by platform: example of including rich text in a webview - where does this fall?
JJ: Difficult to determine. We have the accessibility inspector but sometimes it is a bit flakey
… what tools can we expect an auditor to use?
… for app, you may also expect auditors to have mire tools than just the app on the mobile phone
… the exception is there for situations where developers have no way to change things - problem that android elements it may be impossible to mark things as buttons
<pauljadam> if a developer changes the color of their switches by making a custom switch then when apple changes the style of the switch, then their custom switch will look old and not match the new UI design, the happened with Liquid Glass
JJ: kets have the same items on the agenda next week - please make drafts for the definitions if you can