W3C

– DRAFT –
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

10 April 2025

Attendees

Present
Addison, Atsushi, Bert, Fuqiao, JcK, Richard
Regrets
-
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
xfq, addison

Meeting minutes

Agenda Review

Action Items

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues

<addison> #165

<gb> Action 165 add a conformance section to suppress the respec warning to specdev (on aphillips) due 2025-04-10

<addison> #164

<gb> Action 164 add the google local fonts proposal to future agenda (on aphillips) due 2025-04-10

addison: google local font proposal, I'll add to next week's agenda

<addison> #163

<gb> Action 163 ask bidi related groups about pointerevents 505 (on xfq) due 2025-03-27

<addison> xfq: did this. saw some replies that logical versions of pan pointer events could be useful

<addison> #162

<gb> Action 162 poll I18N/CSS for new day/time (on aphillips) due 2025-03-25

addison: I'll keep 163 for now

<addison> #159

<gb> Action 159 write up proposal for specdev char-string section, adding material that deals with the encoding interface et al (on aphillips) due 2025-02-27

<addison> #157

<gb> Action 157 write glossary proposal identifying options and next steps for those options (on aphillips) due 2025-02-20

<addison> #136

<gb> Issue 136 follow up on XML errata (by aphillips) [task]

addison: #160, I finally got a reply from florian, I'm going to hold this for now

<gb> CLOSED Action 160 review graphemes in specdev and add balinese example and otherwise fix the text (on aphillips) due 2025-03-06

<addison> #135

<gb> Action 135 follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17

<addison> #127

<gb> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30

<addison> #89

addison: XML errata, next week I should have an answer

<gb> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18

<addison> #33

<gb> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)

<addison> #7

<gb> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023

<addison> #4

<gb> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023

Info Share

addison: I saw JcK's email on the art list, I started writing a response

Review RADAR Review

<addison> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1

Pending Issues Review

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending

discuss pointerevent 505

<addison> pointerevents#505

<gb> Issue 505 ‘Logical’ values for the ‘touch-action’ property (by aphillips) [i18n-needs-resolution] [future]

w3c/pointerevents#272

<gb> Issue 272 Add logical dimension values for touch-action property, since logical is/has shipped (by jonjohnjohnson) [future]

w3c/alreq#289

<gb> Issue 289 Should `touch-action` support logical directions like `pan-inline` / `pan-block`? (by xfq) [question] [i:bidi_text] [i:interaction] [l:arb] [l:pes] [l:ug] [l:ur] [l:ks] [l:ku]

<addison> xfq: the pan-inline could be useful. you could use css rules or js to do this currently.

<addison> ... they won't add in L3 and add in L4. already a PR for that to work on in L4.

r12a: I read this alreq issues and people saying oh yeah it's necessary here's an example
… but I couldn't see why you needed logical values for those examples

addison: I think what r12a's trying to say is is there a moment when you would want the pan direction to be different than the different than the touch event direction

addison: so the reason to use logical rather than physical would be to say I want to restrict scrolling to only be left or right or up or down without having to specify the specific direction you're locking it off from
… you would use this property to say don't allow this page to scroll horizontally

Bert: I think the use case is to @@1
… to say that gesture should be passed on rather than ignored you use this property
… the logical values mean you can scroll in the forward direction whatever that forward direction is

addison: I would prefer if in the future CSS started from logical and add physical when physical has more meaning
… in this case actions are almost always in a physical direction regardless of how the text is laid out
… so I get the need for physical directions

r12a: one possibility is if you're not touching the screen because you don't have hands or you are not able to get closer to the screen, you could issue a voice command that says pan forward and then you'd have to know where forward was?
… my initial assumption would be that it has to use the direction of the document

Bert: the whole thing of the property is you make a movement it cannot be used for scrolling but please don't ignore it and turn it into a pointer event and send it up to the parent element or whatever
… script handler

addison: it generates a pointer event that isn't consumed by the scrolling action and it's handed to you to do something with
… this is a way to hook that
… so that I can do something else
… like if you get to the top of a page and you pull down

Bert: I think it's okay to leave this to later if you add logical values later

w3c/pointerevents#496

<gb> Pull Request 496 Add logical/abstract values for `touch-action` (by patrickhlauke) [future]

Bert: I think that doesn't remove any of the current functionality

w3c/alreq#289 (comment)

<gb> Issue 289 Should `touch-action` support logical directions like `pan-inline` / `pan-block`? (by xfq) [question] [i:bidi_text] [i:interaction] [l:arb] [l:pes] [l:ug] [l:ur] [l:ks] [l:ku]

addison: xfq asked some bidi people, and at least a couple of them came back with yeah this is a real thing
… there's a video of this ^

r12a: what's different there actually I think is the transition direction

addison: by having logical values you could just program at once
… you just pan-inline-start and it pulls from that side of the screen
… rather than having to have a set of pointer events for rtl and ltr layouts

In addition, it was noted that authors would likely use the directional touch-action in combination with overflow. It appears that currently, logical values for overflow are only in draft in their respective spec, so the general feeling was that merging #496 into the future/next version (Level 4, or potentially "living standard") is not going to be

a critical blocker right now for authors.

<gb> Issue 496 not found

addison: the reason that they're deferring to L4 is touch action is mainly used in combination with overflow and overflow is only kind of drafty
… overflow doesn't have logical directions yet
… they claim to want to do both in L4
… we're requiring bidi people to rewrite things backwards

xfq: and people using vertical text

Bert: I don't mind postponing

addison: let me propose that we propose permit them to go forward with L3
… ask they work really hard on getting it in L4
… does that sound like the right result?

<r12a> "These four properties form a logical property group together with the overflow shorthand, and interact as defined in CSS Logical Properties 1 § 4 Flow-Relative Box Model Properties."

<r12a> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-overflow/#overflow-control

ACTION: addison: reply to pointerevents 505

<gb> Created action #166

close #163

<gb> Closed issue #163

specdev prs

https://deploy-preview-155--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#characters

addison: I made changes

https://deploy-preview-155--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#example-encoding-terminology-illustrated

addison: in reponse to last week's discussion
… I have fixed the table under the first piece of mustard as discussed
… with dotted lines and getting rid of the repeated use of the word character
… and then I redid the I love Swiss cows example
… any high-level comments on this?
… is that example effective?
… or should I just rip it out?

r12a: seems okay to me

addison: so my proposal here would be please review this if you have time in detail

https://deploy-preview-154--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_truncation

https://deploy-preview-154--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#example-code-unit-trunc-bad

addison: I incorporated an image indivisible and memorable
… I think I've mostly addressed the comments

r12a: looks all right now

addison: is this good enough that we could let other people to see it and we can always come back and do more work on it?
… or if there are specific things to fix then I'm happy to fix them

addison: I think all of your comments were addressed
… I left open ones where I did something different than your comment

https://deploy-preview-154--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_trunc_unit_rec

r12a: that sounds okay to me

xfq: looks good to me

r12a: we can merge it

<Bert> +1 to merging

xfq: +1

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bray-unichars/

Summary of action items

  1. addison: reply to pointerevents 505
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 244 (Thu Feb 27 01:23:09 2025 UTC).

Diagnostics

Succeeded: s/pan forward and then you'd have to know where forward was/pan forward and then you'd have to know where forward was?/

Maybe present: r12a, xfq

All speakers: addison, Bert, r12a, xfq

Active on IRC: addison, Bert, JcK, r12a, xfq