Meeting minutes
V2 structure
Lisa We had questions and decided to wait until the structure subgroup was available to answer these questions
Lisa: Did you discuss whether to start with an outcome?
Rain: They are meant to be formatted as "Do this" because that's what people were expecting to use that section for.
Rain: The way that people framed it in the research was "I need to be told what I am actually trying to do." The why will be covered elsewhere.
Rain: Instead of "The user needs to understand what the page is," it's written in a more actionable way: "This is what you have to do."
Lisa: So that approach was based on user feedback?
Rain: Yes
Rain: The "How it helps" section and "Know your user" will include a lot of explanations.
Lisa: We debated whether to "Use clear titles" at the beginning of the sentence or to start with broader "Help users understand the purpose of the page by using clear titles."
Rain: There are two approaches that we can take. The research says we're going to leave some people wanting either way.
Rain: There are two opposing wishes for how this guidance should be presented.
Rain: One side wants to put the user first and always anchor around them: "Help users understand the purpose of the page by using clear titles"
Rain: The other side says "You're talking down to me. Just tell me what to do." So would start the sentence with "Use clear titles..."
Rain: We got feedback from several analysts/testers and also people on the spectrum. Those two groups wanted the "Just tell me what to do" approach.
Rain: We have to decide as a group which approach we want to take and we should document it in the style guide so we can be consistent.
Lisa: If I know what I'm trying to achieve, then I can better follow what to do.
Rain: If we said "Use clear titles or other proven mechanisms," I'd be worried. But if we flip it around, I'd be OK with "Help users understand the purpose of the page by using clear titles or other proven mechanisms."
Frankie raised internationalization concerns
Lisa: We could ask Internationalization for feedback on the two approaches
Lisa: Give Internationalization the two versions of the summary sentence and get their feedback on whether putting the action first or second will complicate localization.
Lisa: I didn't know what to do with "Use visible labels." It threw me off to have it as a separate pattern.
Rain pointed to where got the pattern from
Rain: We were pulling from "Use clear labels"
Rain: When we pulled everything together from the existing document, we felt like items 3 and 4 needed to be combined in what is now item 2.
Rain: We combined "Show labels clearly with their controls" and "When labels can't be next to their controls, they should be near visible..."
Lisa: I sent an email asking when the structure subgroup can be available to meet to keep discussing the drafts.
Lisa: Daylight savings change complicates the next few weeks.
Lisa: I sent a few times
Lisa: We need your input to help us resolve things so we don't go back to square one with the whole conversation.
Rain: We were trying to put that information in the text, but I guess it wasn't clear.
Lisa: There's nothing like having an actual person available to talk about it.
Lisa: Let's prioritize when Frankie can come.
Rain: I'm not available synchronously for the next two weeks.
Rain: I am more likely to be able to carve out two hours rather than doing several shorter meetings.
Rain: Starting in Q2, I should have more time. But right now hard to find a two-hour block.
Lisa: Jan is here and we can ask how to get feedback from internationalization.
Lisa: Maybe we could put changes in suggestion mode and Rain can approve them?
Rain: That makes sense.
Lisa: We're going to try to find a time with Frankie. We're also going to use suggestion mode in what we add and change so Rain can review.
Frankie: Tuesdays and Thursdays are hard for me. So many meetings already on those days.
Frankie: I'm willing to do that for the next couple months to get through this.
Frankie: Mondays and Wednesdays are even harder.
Lisa: I'll huddle with Julie and we'll find the best time.
Lisa: After we've done one or two, and get a feeling, then hopefully will be able to do on our own.
Lisa asked Jan to get feedback from internationalization on how to present the summary sentence in each pattern.
Lisa: We need it to be understandable and clear.
Lisa: We want it to be translatable.
Lisa: We want it to be consistent so the summary sentences follow a formula.
<Jan> present_
Lisa: Option 1: Start with the big picture and then explain what to do about it: "Help users understand X by doing Y." Example: "Help users understand the purpose of the page by using clear titles."
Lisa option 2: Start with what to do and then give the why: "Do X to help users with Y." Example: "Use clear titles to help users understand the purpose of the page."
Lisa: Frankie raised concerns that Option 1 may be harder to translate?
https://
Lisa: Is there a difference in terms of internationalization?
Rain: Option 1: Help users do ___ by doing ___
Rain: Option 2: Do ___ to help users do ____
WCAG 3 coordination
Julie: Any updates or concerns to share?
Frankie: We're making progress
Frankie: At what point should we bring things in for COGA to review?
Frankie Captions draft is almost ready
Frankie We're planning to publish several things at once
julierawe Is there anything especially concerning that you want COGA to weigh in on? If not, just flag COGA when the pull request goes out
Lisa: APA put out a suggestion that captions or auditory descriptions could provide information about implied content for neurodivergent people. Should there be an additional track.
Frankie That did not come up in the scratch pad.
Lisa There's a lot of research on autistic people having trouble picking up on implied meaning.
Lisa: Such as in facial expressions
Frankie: There is already some guidance on including important non-spoken information
Frankie: We can include more guidance on emotional cueing