Meeting minutes
Accessibility of machine learning and generative AI.
<Joshue108> JW: We need to discuss this
<Joshue108> JW: We need a structure on the issues and happy to hear update
https://
JW: I've suggested structure on list
JW: We are not likely to identify all or even most relevant use cases
We can treat the cases we know about as examples and raise issues
This would help with a conceptual framework
<Joshue108> +1 to Jason
JW: This would help the document age well - without the need for constant updates
Leads to a more enduring approach.
<Joshue108> +1 from Janina and Scott
JS: We can point to things in various domains and aspects
SH: Good point - its too vast.
We can pick on examples and case studies
JS: Can we brainstorm?
Re: Table of contents
JS: We have the person with a disability on the web trying to take advantage of AI enabled contents
We need considerations related to that.
We have content creation being assisted by AI
we need to be aware of that - good for text
Problematic for images - what degree of confidence can we have?
Code generation is also to be included
Then the user interacting with various agents - smart travel.
What will make this helpful?
JS: How can AI bring accomodations?
Then there is the user interaction with their own systems.
I wouldn't mind if it was monitoring what I was doing and helping me be smarter on things that I could do.
Or notify me from time to time?
Can vary from user agent. Rich vein is thinking of this.
Assistive Technologies should be looking at this.
SH: Saw some smart home/car videos are interesting, immersive AI
SH: Very granular - and the a11y conversation is not there yet
JS: The standard agent for folks without a11y needs will not work
It needs to be considered or it will be an inaccessible world all over again.
https://
JS: We are going to build the TOC shortly and get an a FPWD out shortly
JS: Would like to see this published soon
JS: Thanks Janina - these suggestions fall well into my analysis
We have ML learning in the authoring env, as a provider of app functionality, and then its use to enhance a11y of UI
JOC: Above comments from Jason White btw
JW: Hope this agreeable
JW: Suggests working on these contents
JS: I want to move on with that job - I dont disagree with the categories. Not sure its the top level of the taxonomy
The user needs to be the centre of everything
JS: All the usual cliches need to be removed
JS: The hyperbole is exaggerated
<scott_h> LG AI video https://
JW: Cory doctorow has good article
JW: There will be good writing on AI A11y - Jason is working also on interesting stuff
<scott_h> LG video shows AI integraiton across multiple devices and user agents but accessibility not considered
RK: There is a lot of potential with new ways of using AI - advantage and risk needs to be considered
The ack jan
RK: The errors need to be considered, disability tax e.g.
Disability tax is the increase of work and effort because of a disability in your everyday life
RK: This needs to be authored in partnership
As a deaf person, voice detection and captions can be added.
But there is more work, as it is not in Sign - so there is another layer of translation
Additional work needs to be thought of
<Joshue108> +1 to Raja
SSG: There is also a 'real' tax to have equity - the tools that are needed, medical care etc
SH: We have noticed this in Oz - things that are 'special' or disability supported are more expenses
Joshue108: +1 to Raja, agree on tyhese scenarios
Joshue108: agree also with user first
Joshue108: This is our opportunity to flag this
Joshue108: the overlays are built by nurds who don't understand the userneed
Joshue108: this is important to flag in this doc
JW: Jason, I'm hearing a concensus as from the user perspective as the top level taxonomy
JW: I think that is reasonable to a large extent but there are issues around the authoring content
Error handling for example
<Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to say why cant we do both
Joshue108: Why can't we do both?
Joshue108: Agree with jason's points, very valid
Joshue108: AI now a panacea, the devil is in the details; we're still in the sales stage
Joshue108: We should ask these larger questions
JS: My comments are pragmatic - I want to know the structure
Am concerned about scope/size
JOC: I dont see the suggestions that Jason made are antithetical to putting the user first
JW: I dont think user needs capture it well for this document
We have other areas to cover
JS: What is an example?
JW: Ok, regarding content creation - you are satisfying user needs for abstract users at that point
Under application development that could be a heading
JS: Counter argument - that sounds like a philosophical thing - sounds like user needs to me
SH: This work started on talking about their perspective in AI - there are other things - remedial actions, how to engage on AI to support People with disabilities and to Josh point about how can we trust it and its ability to support users with disabiities
SH: Those elements need to come in
JW: I have to agree with Janina on this
e.g. the authoring process does support people with disabilities -
JW: How?
JS: Difference between quality management
<Joshue108> +1 to Jason - quality is critical here
JW: Yes, this will be error prone tech for a long time
JS: Just to be clear - in the intro we can say this tech will be error prone, some of this will produce content that wont work
I don't want to discuss that
JW: I think this is critical
RK: The question about authoring ..
Creating videos and content - what are we using the term authorship?
JS: I think Jason is thinking very broadly, doctoral work, cool app building etc
JW: Yes
<Beethoven is being invoked>
SH: Who we writing for?
JOC: Great question
SH: Devs and designers that engage with the user?
jasonjgw: Anyone trying to integrate AI into their applications; code,, AT, content, etc
jasonjgw: Highly relevant audiences for this work
jasonjgw: We want to influence those people in W3C and elsewhere
scott_h: To support a user need? or other applications?
scott_h: So errors, about ML to pick up errors in ml itself? Is it its own end?
jasonjgw: Well, that's useful, but in the end that needs to serve greater a11y
Raja_Kushalnagar: Currently no way for AI to catch its own errors
Raja_Kushalnagar: maybe someday, but not yet
jasonjgw: We have error handling as a major problem
scott_h: Yes, ai halucinations ...
Raja_Kushalnagar: Showing to the user and the audience
Raja_Kushalnagar: Sometimes we'll see things -- in captions
Raja_Kushalnagar: Both people involved need to see them
scott_h: If AI generates someone with 6 fingers, a low vision person might not catch
We also have the potential for AI to produce trashy code that could be sold as being accessible remediation
jasonjgw: when ai is generating part or all of the ui ... not scripted -- all ml generated
jasonjgw: what capability makes the user's a11y needs supported
jasonjgw: errors an issue there too, but can it meet my cognitive needs, my at needs
Joshue108: also a11y remediation ...
jasonjgw: Two things we've identified:
jasonjgw: 1 Issues of accuracy in general -- accuracy of what the ML does
jasonjgw: 2. what are the capabilities of the ml when it's producing content and/or ui -- does it comprhend my a11y need and accomodate