W3C

– DRAFT –
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

28 March 2024

Attendees

Present
Addison, Bert, JcK, Richard, xfq
Regrets
-
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
xfq

Meeting minutes

Agenda Review

Action Items

<addison> #85

<gb> Action 85 send a note to privacy folks saying we did a review with notes about i18n (on aphillips) due 2024-03-28

<addison> #84

<gb> Action 84 follow up on i18n-glossary#51 (on r12a) due 2024-03-21

r12a: re #84, I wrote what I think we should do in the issue and somebody needs to do it

<addison> #82

<gb> Action 82 publish khmer lreq with new format (on r12a) due 2024-03-21

<addison> #79

<gb> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07

<addison> #78

<gb> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07

<addison> #77

<gb> Action 77 create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in action 73 (on r12a) due 2024-03-07

<r12a> w3c/i18n-activity#1841

<gb> Issue 1841 Request for additional named entities for invisible/ambiguous characters (by r12a) [pending] [s:html] [t:char_ref]

r12a: re #77, I have created a pending issue for people to look at

<addison> #76

<gb> Action 76 propose best practices for producers and for examples in specs in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07

<addison> #75

<gb> Action 75 work on developing new specdev material about IDNs/domain names/etc. (on xfq) due 2024-02-29

<addison> #43

<gb> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18

<addison> #33

<gb> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)

<addison> #12

<gb> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023

addison: re #12, I think I'm done editing the explainer

<addison> #8

<gb> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023

addison: we can review it again together in an upcoming call

<addison> #4

<gb> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023

<r12a> w3c/respec#4462

<gb> Issue 4462 Provide a shortcut for typing character markup (by r12a) [Feature request]

r12a: re #4, seems to be potentially making some progress, see ^

Info Share

JcK: more colors and cuter fonts in the new IRC client

RADAR Review

[GB 18030 discussions]

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

Pending Issue Review

<addison> w3c/i18n-activity#1841

<gb> Issue 1841 Request for additional named entities for invisible/ambiguous characters (by r12a) [pending] [s:html] [t:char_ref]

FPWD of Khmer Layout Requirements

<r12a4> https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/indexnew.html

addison: r12a, you want to propose the first draft note of the Khmer Layout Requirements, correct?

r12a: correct

<r12a4> https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/index.html

r12a: see ^

addison: we need to vote on publishing this

<xfq> +1

<addison> +1

<r12a4> +1

<Bert> +1

<JcK> 0

<r12a4> https://w3c.github.io/tlreq/index.html

<JcK> Have not been able to find time to review

RESOLUTION: publish Khmer Layout Requirements as FPWD

<r12a4> https://w3c.github.io/tlreq/indexnew.html

r12a: here's another link for Tibetan
… I'm doing the same for Tibetan
… I realised that I wasn't gonna put the links at the bottom of the section
… I was going to put them at the top of the section
… because that's more useful and clear

MathML review

addison: cool. Thank you.

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending+label%3As%3Amathml

<addison> #1834

<gb> Issue 1834 not found

<addison> w3c/i18n-activity#1834

<gb> Issue 1834 Clarify note on single character of mi as italic (by himorin) [pending] [s:mathml] [wg:math]

Bert: about #1834, it's not quite clear what the spec is saying
… whether it's a letter
… as far as I'm concerned, the example is allowed to be a little less precise than the normative text

<JcK> Richard, once the Tibetan version is ready to be made a bit more public, I probably have a lead on good reviewers who read and write the language daily are are very concerned about it.

<addison> ... On text nodes containing a single characters (after whitespace has been removed)...

Bert: @@1

<addison> w3c/i18n-activity#1837

<gb> Issue 1837 lspace/rspace have confusing names (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml]

Bert: the lspace and rspace attributes in mathml are very old
… they're already in the first mathml which is 20+ years old
… they are now logical
… so we could add a note to say that it's not physical

<Bert> https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-core/#layout-of-mrow

Bert: 2 possible places, the first intro of the attributes
… or how it is laid out

<addison> w3c/i18n-activity#1838

<gb> Issue 1838 Whether/when to mirror operators (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml]

addison: objections?

Bert: certain operators are mirrored in rtl formulas
… mathml doesn't mention this

<addison> w3/i18n-activity#1839

<gb> Issue 1839 not found

<addison> w3c/i18n-activity#1839

<gb> Issue 1839 Define that (and how) glyph assemblies are mirrored in rtl formulas (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml]

Bert: @@2
… There is a document on the Unicode site

https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2022/22026r-non-bidi-mirroring.pdf

Bert: from Kent Karlsson
… from 2 years ago

ACTION: addison: ping the UTC about the status of the mirroring proposal

<gb> Created action #86

Bert: talks exactly about these extension characters
… but I haven't found any other reference to that

<addison> w3c/i18n-activity#1840

<gb> Issue 1840 Explain the mapping tables (appendix C) (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml]

Bert: the MathML3 spec and the MathML Core spec are not consistent
… it's a bit unclear
… my question is what are those tables for
… are they indeed for that purpose and why
… if so, why doesn't the spec say that they are for that purpose?
… why are those tables are there?

RFC9457 and string-meta

<addison> RFC9457 defines a JSON (and alternate XML) structure for returning error information. Seems like they could follow our guidance in string-meta and include lang/dir metadata in the document. They do provide for localization externally by doing language negotiation off of Accept-Language, but it seems criminal not to tell the recipient what language

<addison> was negotiated??

addison: RFC 9457 describes a JSON structure and separately in XML for responding with additional info when an error is produced
… for example, if you produce the forbidden HTTP response it could include human readable description of what was forbidden and why
… like your password was wrong or something like that
… that standard does not include any language or direction annotation for the human language strings
… it seems like it ought to
… there doesn't seem to be a reason not to provide it

ACTION: addison: write to IETF ADs about RFC9457 with JcK's assistance

<gb> Created action #87

<addison> rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9457.html

String-meta best practices for producers

<addison> w3c/string-meta#86

<gb> Pull Request 86 Add best practices for writing examples and for producers (by aphillips)

<addison> https://deploy-preview-86--string-meta.netlify.app/#bp-producers

addison: I had an action item to write best practices for writing examples and for producers
… I welcome comments on it

Specdev changes to support IDNs

<addison> w3c/bp-i18n-specdev#128

<gb> Pull Request 128 New section about IDNs (by xfq)

<addison> https://deploy-preview-128--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#idn

[Tanych/accept-language] I18N objections to reducing accept-language

xfq: not ready for review yet

<addison> Tanych/accept-language#10 (comment)

<gb> Issue 10 I18N objections to reducing accept-language (by aphillips)

addison: some time ago, there's a proposal to reduce accept-language to a single value

<addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024JanMar/0114.html

addison: I was actioned at some point to reply to them saying we don't think that's a great idea
… with 2 comments
… safari users can only have one language preference
… the second comment is: can you give me any site or code example to understand better about the accept-language use cases for i18n?

<r12a-webkit> https://www.w3.org/International/articlelist#navigating

addison: do we have an article about language negotiation somewhere?
… I haven't looked at it in a while

r12a-webkit: there's a bunch of stuff here ^
… there is even an article called Accept-Language used for locale setting

addison: the stuff here hasn't been updated in a while

addison: I have a long thing that I wrote outside of standards land about language negotiation
… which with only a little bit of work could probably be adapted appropriately
… I don't have time right now, though

r12a-webkit: why do they want to do that?

xfq: to reduce fingerprinting

addison: the A-L header is potentially a fingerprinting vector because if you put enough things in it, it could be unique

AOB?

xfq: @@

Summary of action items

  1. addison: ping the UTC about the status of the mirroring proposal
  2. addison: write to IETF ADs about RFC9457 with JcK's assistance

Summary of resolutions

  1. publish Khmer Layout Requirements as FPWD
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 221 (Fri Jul 21 14:01:30 2023 UTC).

Diagnostics

Maybe present: r12a, r12a-webkit

All speakers: addison, Bert, JcK, r12a, r12a-webkit, xfq

Active on IRC: addison, Bert, JcK, r12a, r12a-webkit, r12a4, xfq