Meeting minutes
<gb> Issue 5478 not found
Agenda
<gb> Issue 5478 not found
<gb> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Agenda+ i18n]
<addison> csswg-drafts#5478
<gb> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Agenda+ i18n]
florian: I also want to talk about a set of issues about text spacing and the various categories
Action Items
<addison> gb, list open actions with label css
<gb> Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #68, #53, #47, #35, #18, #16, #11
florian: in terms of action items, I'll dive into the details later
<addison> #47
<gb> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04
florian: give an update or a refresher to the CSSWG about what Warichu is
… let's dive into this one first
… I don't think anything will happen urgently
… @@@1
… there were a few people who thought that the hardest problem about this was to stretch the parentheses
… and say this looks like MathML
… but that is not actually the main problem
… there were a couple of questions that I didn't have answer for
… but xfq gave an answer
… which is embedded Warichu
… if you see Bible annotations, you tend to have annotations on annotations
… Illustrator supports arbitrary number of lines
addison: should I close #47?
<addison> close #47
<gb> Closed issue #47
florian: I think so
… I don't expect any consequence immediately
#68
<gb> Action 68 follow up with florian about testing with kindle (on aphillips) due 2024-01-25
addison: #68 is on me actually to follow up with you about testing on Kindle
… I wasn't here in the meeting, but I could help you
florian: it's about HTML ruby
… tabular markup and rtc
… on Firefox and Kindle
<addison> #18
<gb> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) due 18 Jul 2023
#16
<gb> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) due 1 Jan 2024
#11
<gb> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) due 18 Jul 2023
florian: I see no particular blocker other than the length of to-do lists, so possibly this year
<gb> Issue 5478 not found
Info Share and Progress Reports
<r12a> w3c/
<gb> Action 73 make a list of invisible characters to support html 5121 discussion (on r12a) due 2024-02-22
r12a: I put together a list of invisible or ambiguous characters I'd like to ask HTML for named entities
… just FYI
addison: we'll have a call with the WHATWG later this week
r12a: btw, florian, if you scroll down to the bottom you'll see the list of things I really want
Discuss quotes in #5478
<addison> csswg-drafts#5478
<gb> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Agenda+ i18n]
florian: I think fantasai made some edits within the past 2 weeks
r12a: I was a little surprised because @@2
… and fantasai was proposing a default that didn't do that
addison: let me see if I can express it
r12a: when you hit the quote for the first time, you look at the language outside the quotes
… and then you decide therefore what type of quotes you're going to use
… and then no matter how many levels of quotes or what languages are contained within those nested quotes, you still use the same type of quotes
<addison> The example is: «Give George my love and tell him, “Muddle”»
r12a: if your context is Japanese, then it'll always be the angle bracket
… all the way down
<addison> Mais Lucy répondit: «Give George my love and tell him, “Muddle”»
<r12a> Mais Lucy répondit: «Give George my love and tell him, ‹Muddle›».
florian: it is capable of doing what r12a wants, but you have to ask for it
… it doesn't automatically do it
r12a: which I don't think is good
… I think it should be default
florian: I think the trick here is in CSS the element no longer matters
… it could be set by the q element
… I don't think the goal is deliberately to do the opposite of what r12a wants
florian: if you just go to the parent all the way to the top @@@3
… you want to start remembering when you hit the first q element
… so that means we need a special value on the q element
… does this mean that the initial value of the property should be `match-parent`
… I think we can get the behaviour we want if we simply put q * { quotes: match-parent; } in the browser style sheet
r12a: but it has to remember the type of quote, not the language of the text
florian: that's fine
… match-parent specify the same type of quotes as the parent
r12a: OK, regardless of any language changes in the way
florian: I'll put a proposal in GitHub
… if you change language between root and the first quote, match-parent would have done the wrong thing
… @@@4
r12a: it seems to me the first level quotes are chosen on the basis of language
… but the second level quote is not chosen on the basis of language at all
florian: it's based on the *quote*
<gb> Issue 5478 not found
text space
florian: we talked about this a while ago
<florian> w3c/
<gb> Pull Request 9503 [css-text-4] Refine definition of ideographs (by frivoal) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Review of Proposed Text] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq]
florian: and in response to that, fantasai and I made a PR
… xfq raised a couple of issues asking about Bopomofo/Hangul and Chinese
… there should be no space, but because Bopomofo/Hangul are considered ideograph or they are considered neither ideographs nor non-ideographic letters?
… and then I saw that there was a proposal to Unicode
… a Unicode property about this
… given the number of questions about this matter, I suspect actually maintaining the mapping in Unicode is the way to go long term
… so it's good that we have this proposal
xfq: I think Bopomofo should be categorized as ideographs
… not sure about Hangul, but might be the same as Bopomofo
florian: we have a few other issues
… like the black square characters and so on and so forth
<florian> bopomofo: w3c/
<gb> Issue 9980 [css-text][text-spacing] Extra spacing between Bopomofo and Chinese characters (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-clreq]
<florian> hangul: w3c/
<gb> Issue 9979 [css-text][text-spacing] Extra spacing between Hangul and Hanja (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-klreq]
<florian> squares: w3c/
<gb> Issue 9603 [css-text][text-spacing] Add black square & white square characters to the definition of ideographs? (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq]
<florian> hw-katakana: w3c/
<gb> Issue 9471 [css-text][text-autospace] Is halfwidth Kana "non-ideographic letters"? (by kojiishi) [css-text-4] [Needs Edits] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Testcase (WPT)] [i18n-jlreq]
<florian> punctuation: w3c/
<gb> Issue 9501 [css-text] The definition of ideographs includes punctuation marks (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-clreq] [Agenda+ i18n]
florian: I'll reread all these issues and see the dominant view in each of them
… I suspect we will not reach perfect until there is a Unicode property
xfq: @@@5
… will discuss with Koji, jlreq, and clreq folks about the Unicode proposal
<gb> Issue 9479 [css-text][text-spacing] Extra spacing between ideographs and non-fullwidth punctuation/symbols (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq]
ACTION: xfq: ask korean folks about text-autospace and hangul
<gb> Created action #74
AOB?
<florian> w3c/
<gb> Issue 7577 [css-values-4][css-writing-modes-4] Revisit decision to use 永 instead of 水 as the ic unit (by ziyunfei) [css-values-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] [Agenda+ i18n]
florian: about CSS#7577, I remember we talked about it
<gb> Issue 7577 not found
<r12a> https://