W3C

– DRAFT –
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

09 November 2023

Attendees

Present
Addison, Bert, Fuqiao, Martin, Richard
Regrets
Atsushi, JcK
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
addison, xfq

Meeting minutes

Agenda Review

Action Items

<gb> Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #58, #57, #56, #55, #54, #53, #47, #43, #39, #35, #33, #18, #16, #12, #11, #8, #7, #5, #4

<addison> #58

<gb> Action 58 revise localizable-manifests in light of tpac conversation and new explainer (on aphillips) due 2023-11-09

<addison> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1SC0wVmEPKpeFdDmIvqBlFpcRZdY0yGzP/edit?usp=drive_link

addison: I gave a lightning talk at the UTW
… about string meta

<addison> #57

<gb> Action 57 add localizable content definition to the glossary (on xfq) due 2023-11-09

<addison> #56

<gb> Action 56 check on permissions with w3ctag and follow up with plh on looking for notifications (on xfq) due 2023-11-02

<addison> #55

<gb> Action 55 work out new time slot for i18n/CSS call (on xfq) due 2023-11-01

<addison> xfq: enough answers to doodle poll, will propose time slot

https://doodle.com/meeting/organize/id/aOZ9ZpEe

<addison> #54

<gb> Action 54 read Murata-san's ruby-t2s-req and Chinese requirements and Zaima and see what we're going to do (on xfq) due 2023-11-01

<addison> #53

<gb> Action 53 come up with a set of information CSS want the i18n group to provide support for generic font families (on frivoal, fantasai) due 2023-11-01

<addison> #47

<gb> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04

<addison> #43

<gb> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18

<addison> #39

<gb> Action 39 develop best practice guidelines for name-like fields (on aphillips) due 2023-08-31

addison: I'm waiting on reviews

<addison> close #39

<gb> Closed action #39

<addison> #35

<gb> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30

<addison> #33

<gb> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)

<addison> #18

<gb> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)

<addison> #16

<gb> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips)

<addison> #12

<gb> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips)

<addison> #11

<gb> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal)

<addison> #8

<gb> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips)

<addison> #7

<gb> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github)

<addison> #5

<gb> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a)

<addison> #4

<gb> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a)

addison: anything we can do to jiggle the handle on the respec action?

r12a: write some code

Info Share

r12a: someone sent me a document about Urdu
… it's time for me to create an Urdu Gap Analysis document
… and do some updates to the counter styles document as well
… although I have a number of questions about how that works
… the more I think about that, the more I wonder whether it's a sensible thing to do
… I've done several already
… it takes quite a while
… I'm thinking maybe not doing a layout requirements document
… but just point to my document
… the layout requirements document contains no technology specific information

r12a: my documents are dynamic
… they have all sorts of additional information which is maybe not appropriate to go in the lreq document
… the lreq document is an evergreen document that describes how the language works
… it's a big job, as xfq knows and atsushi knows

addison: is that something we could automate better?

r12a: no
… I'm not saying get rid of the ones that we have necessarily
… I'm just saying I don't think I'll try and write another lreq document

martin: there was one unconference session about IDN

<addison> https://unicode-org.slack.com/archives/C064LLR2LQZ/p1699485049346849

martin: IDNA 2008 and UTS #46

<gb> Action 46 [closed] read the string-meta explainer and consider the new approach addison proposes (on xfq, r12a) due 2023-09-28

martin: they still have different purposes
… but the essential difference that they had is mostly gone

addison: IETF has an exclusion process for characters
… and it's a long running process
… Mark Davis thinks that the exclusion process is a bad thing

martin: trying to catch up with new versions of Unicode is definitely something that I want to tell the idea of people to do

<addison> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LY-L5X6AybvQuzX_4BnvVwC7zPZEXjVC/edit?usp=drive_link&ouid=108765948792125311361&rtpof=true&sd=true

RADAR Review

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

addison: we have no new incoming requests
… we have nothing in review
… vc-json-schema is moved over to Awaiting comment resolution

Generic Font Families

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/wiki/Generic-font-families

r12a: this is a long standing issue
… there are some font styles or writing styles that you might be using in a particular language
… if the user doesn't have the font you specified, the browser is going to fall back
… the generics we have at the moment are sort of stylish
… like serif and sans-serif
… during Geek Week I updated all the fonts of macOS and Windows 11, and Noto and SIL
… I grouped those fonts into scripts and different writing styles
… Chris Lilley already proposed the addition of Kai as a generic fallback
… but there are things like rashi and so on
… this list is based on the system fonts and Noto fonts in particular
… for Hebrew there's not only rashi
… there are also cursive letters
… a bit further down, you can see that I'm suggesting that users should be able to define which font gets used for a particular generic
… just like you can choose what you want for serif and sans-serif at the moment

<addison> xfq: useful page and in right direction; chris lilley has already added some comments

martin: you showed this fonts dialogue
… if I choose Latin, I would still have these choices
… but what if I use Chinese

r12a: this is implementation specific and it's kind of up to the browsers to an extent

<r12a> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/fontlist/index.html

martin: what about Fangsong and Kai in Latin?

r12a: I don't really know the answer

martin: probably it would confuse most users in the Western Hemisphere if they see kai and nastaliq
… it's definitely the browser makers to figure out whether they want to do that
… if it's helpful to have Kai for Chinese and not for Latin
… then do we have that information to what extent can be provided or not

addison: it's not really about language
… it's about setting up what your fallback is

addison: what's the next step?

r12a: probably need to copy it to all of the language enablement groups
… it's getting quite a lot of attention from serious people on Mastodon
… I don't think whether CSS really need to set up a registry
… so what's been happening so far is that Chris Lilley is gonna add Kai and nastaliq

addison: should we formalize this more?
… this is just a wiki page at the moment

r12a: wiki makes it really easy to change things

addison: if our intention is to do a note eventually, we might want to start setting up a repo and a shortname
… maybe roll it around in your head for a week

r12a: OK, I'll do that
… I expect that we will add more than these styles eventually
… but people will have to make a strong case for it
… if you have a registry anyone could suggest stuff to it
… you'd end up with a bit of a mess

addison: having it in the spec means higher level of friction
… you can always make a registry later

AOB?

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 221 (Fri Jul 21 14:01:30 2023 UTC).

Diagnostics

Maybe present: r12a

All speakers: addison, martin, r12a

Active on IRC: addison, r12a, xfq