<CarlosD> scribe+ dan-tripp
scribe+ dan_tripp
carlos: giacomo pls take it out then put it back
(2007)
(rather: 2107)
wilco: you (giacomo) and I should get on a separate call for it
wilco: no updates from me
helen: nothing major
dan: I emailed kathy no response yet
wilco: ping kathy again, today
giacomo: stuck on CJK one.
<Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2121/
giacomo: do we need a native speaker? (re: PR 2121)
wilco: I'd be happy for this to
get merged.
... can start a separate issue / note. but it's a great
improvement as-is.
carlos: problem is: no examples in korean, right?
giacomo: right
carlos: it would be better if we
had those korean examples, but still a large improvement
without them.
... do we have any space on the rules where we can write a note
that we're looking for help for eg. korean examples?
wilco: I don't think that we
should put that on the rules.
... we need to figure out why these tests are failing too
... giacomo?
... failing test w/ one of the spelling checkers.
giacomo: it seems correct. unicode. 4e00.
wilco: looks like a bug in the
spell checker.
... already in the spelling ignore file.
... strange.
dan: I'll do it. (typescript debugging ) email me wilco.
wilco: replace background w/
understanding section.
... == rename.
... adding "implementation" section. getting close to first
public working draft.
carlos: what's the motivation re: background / understanding?
wilco: better understood term.
more clear what's in it.
... people have wondered why something is in the rule and it's
already explained in background section. maybe they'll read it
if it's named "understanding".
... and some a11y support notes don't seem appropriate in
"background".
... this came out of TPAC.
carlos: any concerns about being confused w/ "understanding" in WCAG?
wilco: that wasn't raised, but by all means raise it.
<Wilco> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/550/files
wilco: 3 more rules ready to go
to working groups
... 6 more to go. 3 to ARIA, 3 to WCAG. hopefully approved in
next month or so.
... starting to look at audio and video rules for approval.
have implementations w/ trusted tester having reviewed
them.
<CarlosD> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/c4a8a4/
wilco: problem is: it's too
open-ended. overall content: what is that?
... does it contain hidden content? content that's revealed on
hover or expand?
... open up tabs?
... lots of websites use external forms. iframe hosts 3rd party
form. only thing in parent is nav and footer.
... if you navigate inside of iframe, does page title need to
change?
giacomo: if you have heading
managed by author, iframe w/ form, purpose is combination of
both.
... title should reflect the form. even if content is inside
iframe.
anne: we're not saying that the
navigation is not the purpose of the page. repeating content
should not be part of the purpose.
... we're after the content of the main section.
carlos: iframe is covered if we replace 'document' with 'web page'
wilco: that would help but doesn't do it all. still open-ended.
helen: not the iframe but single-page applications (SPAs). the user experiences the whole page, not the iframe etc.
wilco: that's a real challenge w/ this rule.
anne: should note some of these challenges on the issue
wilco: I just did.
carlos: I think we all agree that
re: anne's comment, we don't want to consider repeating content
for the title.
... eg. navigation
... that will bring this rule under what trevor is doing.
wilco: trevor has been working on vagueness. subjectivity.
anne: format for titles. ok to have underscores? made for human consumption.
helen: recommendation for limiting number of characters used in page title.
carlos: I don't think we should
include that. hardly normative.
... maybe in background/understanding. not in
expectation.
... re: trevor: more than work on vagueness - trevor's work on
states. here we want to address the issues of navigation.
probably related to different states of the web page. eg. if
it's an SPA. if we move to a different state of the page in an
SPA, we want the title to be changed. related to work on
states.
wilco: required to change page title if you change the purpose of the page, even if you don't change the URL?
carlos: yes, that's what I'm arguing for.
wilco: I've never tested for that. have others?
carlos: I haven't. but probably will, w/ SPAs becoming more common.
wilco: if you're switching between tabs, you might want to change title.
giacomo: updating title does not tell the AT. I tested this recently.
wilco: if you've got an iframe that makes the main body of page, and you go from form to the "success" page, does the page need to update its title?
carlos: none of us would be
against change title in that situation. so the spirit of the SC
is this.
... eg. moving from form to post-form "success" page.
helen: eg. first part of title (front-loaded) as per W3C's recommendation.
wilco: changing from document to
web page is a good idea. doesn't solve everything.
... would like to get WGs perspective on this.
giacomo: definition of 'purpose
of the page' is subjective.
... change of context / content. imagine product listing page.
apply filter. content is changing.
... title might become more or less precise.
... w/ changing filters. eg. pants vs. pants of a certain
colour.
... agree that changing 'document' to 'page' is an
improvement.
wilco: ok to be subjective. my
problem is that it's vague.
... eg. clarify visible content vs. content in a11y tree.
carlos: we need to at least agree on what is the content.
wilco: agree.
helen: uniqueness is a concern.
carlos: what needs to be unique? title or content?
helen: title. don't want title used 5 times for 5 different "areas" (pages?)
carlos: probably would be another rule. called "page title is unique".
wilco: I disagree. pages can have
same title.
... curious whether people feel like if the purpose of the page
changes, does the title need to be updated, regardless of
whether navigation happened?
carlos: agree
giacomo: agree
wilco: ok that's not clear now.
me: agree
anne: just listening.
helen: agree.
wilco: then we should have it in
the rule.
... we can propose this.
carlos: that addresses one issue. not the original issue that wilco raised.
wilco: feeling more and more confident. leaving comments on issue during this meeting.
anne: I'd like to see repeating content mentioned also.
wilco: I'm less sure about
that
... certainly it's not the only thing. common to mention name
of website in title, and that's useful, and that's repeated
content.
anne: but repeated menus, footers aren't relevant to title. and chat widget.
wilco: fair enough.
giacomo: related articles are in main content but not part of the purpose. so how do we handle that?
helen: title format: page purpose
| category | company
... W3C recommendation / tutorials.
... not excluding. just making sure that repeated items aren't
the starting point.
carlos: I agree w/ giacomo that
it's going to be complex. what parts of page's content should
be left out of the title?
... not sure it's going to bring a lot of value. not worth
going through all that complexity. 3 items added by wilco
during this call bring a lot of value already.
... final thoughts?
wilco: good old fashioned conformance requirements discussion. love it. great to have anne on the call.
helen: yay. enjoyed it.
anne: good to be back. amazing having these discussions. don't know if I'll be back or just visiting.
giacomo: thank you as always. very intersting discussions. wilco: will send availability.
dan: it's hard to scribe and talk at the same time.
<CarlosD> s/… (^^ actually giacomo)/
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/2020:/dan:/ Succeeded: s/I'll do it/dan: I'll do it/ Succeeded: s/heaidng/heading/ Succeeded: s/from form the/from form to the/ Succeeded: s/anne: related articles/giacomo: related articles/ FAILED: s/… (^^ actually giacomo)// Succeeded: s/... (^^ actually giacomo)// Default Present: anne_thyme, Wilco, Helen, dan-tripp, CarlosD, giacomo-petri_ Present: anne_thyme, Wilco, Helen, dan-tripp, CarlosD, giacomo-petri_ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: dan-tripp Inferring Scribes: dan-tripp WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth WARNING: No date found! Assuming today. (Hint: Specify the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.) Or specify the date like this: <dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]