TPAC Breakout Session 2024

13 September 2023


alastairc, Andreas_Tai, ben_tillyer, BrianE, CharlesL, kevin, Lionel, matatk, mitch11, Shawn(part)
Janina Sajka, Lionel Wolberger
Lionel, mitch11

Meeting minutes

<Lionel> zakim start meeting

<ben_tillyer> https://w3c.zoom.us/j/88565162415?pwd=U081cEQvSFRZOTRSV0h3dE94cXBFZz09

<ben_tillyer> (Would rather type than speak) Hello, I am an invited expert and active member of AG WG

Lionel: any objections to recording? none

Introductions were done

what we have done the last year

See https://a11yedge.github.io/capabilities/

janina: After many meetings we started centering in on a list of capabilities that overlays and edge technologies can do
… We grouped them into high level categories
… we went from spreadsheets to HTML
… added a <definition> list semantics
… the definition list for each capability was "source" or "edge"
… "trade-offs"
… There is good agreement that source is the best place for most things
… so what drives edge activity?
… one main driver, the Internet Almanac evidence that sites have tens if not over 50 third party services
… that only mash up and work at the edge
… overlays may be the solution for part of them
… We realized opportunities, patterns
… some patterns are aspirational, capabilities we look forward to having but may be many years out
… For example, "Kill Captcha" agenda, captcha being such a barrier to accessibility
… having trusted third parties perhaps managing a profile for desired services
… The analysis that the CG has succeeded in curating can be used as a checklist
… It could be used to analyze a particular overlay service, and be specific about what it does well and what it does not
… APA is interested in continuing this work stream, perhaps forming a task force
… We have in APA low vision users, screen reader users
… in general APA is interested in facilitating personalization, the act of personalizing or making web experiences more suitable to an individual
… indivisual's needs
… Imagine that you can configure your needs once, and apply it to all sites
… why should I have to configure my desires at Company A, then Company B, Then Website C
… the computer is supposed to serve the user, not the user serve the computer
… a portable profile seems like a good thing

Wilco: I would like to dig into privacy concerns

I'll scribe now

Lionel: next we'll do a deep dive of capabilities draft report
… moving to a word 'edge' that avoids triggering assumptions
… showing the technology diagram https://www.w3.org/community/a11yedge/
… major headings: meeting user's needs; meeting content provider's needs

we applied user-centered design
… we applied user-centered design
… (summarizing the doc linked above)
… "sometimes content changes dynamically" is an outdated phrase from WCAG, it has flipped
… summarizing https://a11yedge.github.io/capabilities/
… "trade-offs" is a work in progress, would like to acknowledge advantages more
… highlighting the "Text Transformations" section in the doc, e.g. font size widget on whitehouse.gov
… source code is a determinant of font size, including third-party sources in pages

<ben_tillyer> Suggestion: A section named "Benefit of being in the source" or "Negatives to being in the edge" for each section, to ensure balanced views are expressed and understood for each point

… summarizing the section "Fully Automated Transformations"

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask if all capabilities are in the right place

Kevin: I have skimmed the document
… for each capability, what discussion was conducted whether or not the edge is the right place for this capability
… for example, font optimization may be best handled by the browser
… that meets the 'configure once, use everywhere' approach
… then the SP is not beholden to including an overlay on their service

janina: We did talk about that. If it was singular that would be very, very true
… the browser does count as edge tech
… but the phone is an app, the desktop has multiple browsers
… we see propagation as needed into all the different device-specific browser agents

David: Suggest we clarify further user agencay

Wilco: we talked about privacy a lot in last year's session
… a lot of people don't feel comfortable coming out with a disability to unknown third parties

<ben_tillyer> +1 to Wilco's comment, myself and my peers have this concern

Wilco: not comfortable with organizations

Lionel: Very committed to privacy personally and will continue to express this here
… I follow this draft note, https://w3c-ccg.github.io/data-minimization/

CharlesL: concern that the doc doesn't go far enough to warn against perception that fully automated add-ons solve all problems

ben_tillyer: I also am interested in privacy
… I do not have time to read all privacy policies on the web
… even if I could read them, I would not understand them as they are written in legalese
… regarding "set once use everywhere" seems to imply that one company might have a monopoly on this
… if there is no monopoly in the edge space, there will be multiple providers
… I think users can be identified by CDN and other data

janina: the big players are each trying to be 'your one stop shop' on this
… the Edge Community Group vision is a bit wider
… there are enough emerging and already existing W3C technology to enable you to choose who will be your proxy agent in this 'configure once, use everywhere'
… we discussed that NGOs and advocacy groups could take this role

Wilco: user agency is currently through the browser, which I can switch.
… but this technology proposed is chosen by the website not by the user
… am I not expected to disclose disability?

Lionel: Some providers require clicking a button to enable, which reveals something. Others apply modifications same for all users.
… User choice for privacy in choosing products
… Compare Apple: widely regarded as more privacy preserving, yet terms and conditions are voluminous

next steps

Janina: shall we break out the aspirational capabilites?

mitch11: That can be time based. Can say, we were considering this on this date, and now find it aspirational

Kavin: a challenge that overlays has presented. Some organizations may have led to overlays getting a bad name.
… we need to weigh in, more of whether each item is needed and if it's being done in the best place

<matatk> +1 to Kevin

Kavin: there may be a place to increase privacy, as handling at the edge is closer to the user
… make clear 'this could be done at the edge, but there may be a better way to do it'

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 221 (Fri Jul 21 14:01:30 2023 UTC).


Succeeded: s/export/expert

Succeeded: s/is less loaded/avoids triggering assumptions/

Succeeded: s/if there's a right way to do it/if it's being done in the best place

Maybe present: David, janina, Kavin, Wilco

All speakers: ben_tillyer, CharlesL, David, janina, Kavin, Kevin, Lionel, mitch11, Wilco

Active on IRC: alastairc, atai, ben_tillyer, BrianE, CharlesL, Ian, kevin, Lionel, matatk, mitch11, shawn, Wilco