Meeting minutes
<shawn> zaki, who is on the phone?
ATAG Briefs
ATAG Briefs
Shawn: Awesome work so far. The Education one is basically done. Jade - were you going look at some terminology?
Jade: Suggestions in GitHub.
Shawn: Education is ready for thorough review. Daniel will look at Jade's comments next week. Any more detailed word smithing, now is the time. Please complete this survey.
ATAG nocode
Shawn: Basically, we have agreed on the format. We will use the same format for the different topics. We are ready with the star fish review, no copy edits now but indication of how you want something rephrased. First, high-level review. Reminder: for the education, we chose to have 2 where the user has a disability, and one where the tool generates accessible content.
Shawn: We are thinking of 3 examples. Look at the 3 examples in the NOCODE tools.
https://
Brent: Besides the three given examples, are there other examples people feel are necessary?
Jade: High-level point: I focussed this morning on the social media draft. NOCODE needs some contextualizing.
Shawn: If no concern, let's look at the Social Media one.
ATAG Brief Social Media
<shawn> https://
Jade: In the Education one, we have references. I'd expect to see the same in the Social Media one, e.g. using icons, or understanding what they mean, some of the visual aspects. Just a general idea of what I feel is missing and I'd expect to see the word "influencer", maybe thinking about the people who are using these tools are represented.
Shawn: One of the specifics, maybe change journalists to "influencer".
<kevin> +1
Brent: My thinking at first was the background of the persona, the user itself, but then hearing about social media, my question - Jade - is whether you are talking about the area or should we add?
Jade: I think both
Brent: E.g., Community Manager is this an actual social media persona. Should the Persona be beefed up more?
Jade: Probably, that one is the most closely tied to Social Media. I'm suggesting that each Persona is more closely linked to its contact.
Shawn: Think about the audience, what will they care about?
Jade: I need to think about it a bit more.
Michele: Thinking about the audience, and legal implications, just wondering if anyone has been sued around ATAG.
Shawn: ATAG has been included in some legal agreements.
Michele: Maybe it would be helpful for some experts to know that. The reality is that - without a penalty - people aren't pushed.
Sharron: That used to be truer than it is now. The whole idea of diversity and inclusion is currently pretty powerful. Giving tools to people with diverse backgrounds is really popular right now.
Shawn: Let's look at the 1st section "Why accessibility matters". We had a push about this in the Education Section. Maybe here the intro needs to be a little different, what resonates.
Kevin: Social media tools are often internal, e.g. yammer, irc etc.. These tools will either include or exclude people in the work force and this is of concern to large organizations.
<shadi> +1 to kevin
Kevin: social media platform is a platform enabling people to engage in communication.
Shawn: Maybe we need to define the scope of this one.
Jade: How broad do we want to make the scope. I think it suffices to say that there are social media platforms used within companies.
Shawn: So, we don't need to fine tune a definition. We need to put upfront - for the tool developers - to recognize that ATAG is important to me. In this first section, what might we want to say first ?
Shawn: There are also collaboration tools. W3C will be introducing soon W3C Collaboration Tools requirements.
Shawn: It's the intro we need to fine tune. Do we want to put something like "including internal social media (?) tools".
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note collaboration tools
<shadi> [[Your current customers and potential new customers need social media tools, to interact with their customers as well as among employees.]]
Michele: I think "Why Accessibility Matters" needs more punch, maybe it needs to be more directly stated at the beginning, direct and plain language.
Brent: Shawn, are you thinking of instant messaging tools, blogging tools, areas where people can like features, other features. Is that what you saying we need to point particular ones?
Shawn: I don't think we want to say current or potential new customers. But, yes, I think we may need some examples so that it rings easily and that ATAG applies.
Shadi: It depends on the definition. Are we talking about individual tools? People pushing out content.
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to say internal tools isn’t a huge issue for me
Shawn: Maybe we need to think about a specific tool which is broader, e.g. Slack.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say Sharron's point
Kevin: I think a bigger market is the everyday user and consumer of social media platforms and output. There is scope for social platforms to be procured by bigger organizations. The issue is that your users need to be supported, those who have disabilities.
Shawn: Maybe this one does emphase the diversity and inclusive aspect.
Brent: Think about market, the consumers will go down if the tool is not accessible. Or internally, for example, if it is not accessible, then people who could not use the tool, could not contribute. On the procurement side, there is pressure to convince the tool producer to provide an accessible platform.
Shawn: Do we try to cover both in this one brief. Option 2: doing two separate briefs. Option 3: focusing on one of these audience?
Brent: Could we not fit both into why accessibility matters? Here are two vendor cases which could be covered with an extra paragraph or bullet etc.
Shawn: This is a great starting point. Maybe the 1st section, the social media one touches on 2 points, e.g. if you're trying to selling to corporates, this is what you need to htink about, if you're trying to selling xyz, this is what you think about. Then, explain about the users who have needs.
Shadi: Maybe abbreviate a bit. The same considerations but briefer.
Shawn: We don't want the 1st section to be that specific. We just want a reaction that "oh this applies to me". A quick understanding. But do we need to say something that we are reaching the tools that are procured and the tools that want users.
Shadi: See my previous comment. Just need to clarify that we are talking about both. We don't need to be long.
Shawn: What questions would you have, Daniel?
Daniel: we could have 2 sentences or 2 paragraphs: 1. you have consumers with disabilities. 2. If you are selling to corporations, you need to be accessible. Then, some fine tuning. Internal example of people not being able to use a platform.
Shawn: Shadi had an idea on brief wording. Daniel, too. Any other concepts on the first section to grab people and let them know we are talking about their tool?
Shawn: to summarize: We want to be aware that there is a broad type of tool that we cover. We want people to feel that this applies to them. We want to succintly in the first section make it clear to people that we are talking about their tool. We might want to change the heading. Any other comments?
<shawn> heading -- We're talking to You!
Brent: If what we want to do with this document is - anybody who reads it - we want to say "This is for you". Maybe change the title, just use the title to draw people in.
Sharron: I think you want people to feel like if you don't read this, you are getting left out. Daniel, I've been talking to a lot of people in the start-up community, looking at the future. If you want some help, I'd be glad to help you.
Daniel: Thank you. I was thinking also if we want to talk about the reputational costs.
<shawn> +1 to reputational costs
<shawn> +1 to Sharron's pont that people want to read this
Sharron: It's really important right now, e.g. the accelerator "Remarkable Tech". It's all of a sudden sunk into people's minds. We could make it cool, groovy ... make it something that people feel that need to know about. I think we need to take advantage of this. I'd be glad to meet with you Daniel to talk further, depending on your time.
Daniel: Yes, I think it needs more thought about how to target the audience.
Shawn: Sharron and Daniel, hopefully, you can talk soon. Anyone else wishes to be involved?
Brent: Idon't want to be specifically involved. But just an experience. Last week, we had a new colleague who spoke about social media, terminology, tools which I had not heard of, talking about an age group 18-25. We need to tap into a social media expert who is in a generation that uses it proficiently so that we make sure the language we use speaks to that range of developers, users who understand the language.
Shawn: Can your person help with this?
Brent: I could try.
Brent: I would be glad to have him review something.
Shawn: Obviously, we need input on this.
Sharron: I'll give an edit pass on some of the things in draft.
Shawn: Let's put this in work for this week.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say heading -- We're Talking to You!
Shawn: Super useful and helpful. We need to fast track this. Please schedule time. Put suggestions in GitHub, do a pull request. For all, on our participation page, there is guidance on comments, specific suggestions and the rationale. Based on what Sharron said, the heading "We're talking to You".
Shawn: Some of what we are working on here, it's totally okay to be different on this format.
Shawn: Monday / Tuesday, we make revisions. Hopefully, we'll have new drafts for discussion next week. We will probably not be meeting on 25.11. Please fill out the availability for 25.11.22.
Shawn: Personas - iIs any further guidance on the social media one? The first one is general. It uses the real life example that I talked about. In the Education one, we had really specific ones. This first one is really generic. Do we want something more specific?
Jade: I've put something in GitHub.
Shawn: If it's word level, we will leave it for Daniel.
Jade: I've tried not change the meaning.
Shawn: The very first question on the agenda. Are these the right examples? The first one is very general, do we need something more specific?
Jade: I think they all need to be more specific.
<kevin> +1 to being as specific as possible
Shawn: Guidance to Daniel: make the examples specific. Change the first one to be very specific instead of general.
Michele: The titles of these are "Guidelines, standards to make " - good title but maybe the expectation is different. What are these examples supposed to convey. Right now, the title and content don't match.
Shawn: The title of the document?
Sharron: Good point.
Shawn: The document is to introduce ATAG. So, the purpose is to say "ATAG applies to you".
Michele: But I think the title "Guidelines to make xyz accessible" means to me that I will find out how to do it. It is eyecatching. I wonder if the expectations are correct.
Shawn: We tried in the Education one.
Michele: It's a one-liner. I cannot preview. What works well is previewing on a web page. what made it work well. In the LMS one, it feels quite "surface-level". I understand it's meant to be brief but it's so brief so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away.
Shawn: The take away is "This applies to me. I need to look at ATAG".
Michele: I'm just wondering if the introduction needs to be clearer. This page is a brief. I think the expectation might cause confusion.
Shawn: Comments from others?
Brent: I agree with what Michele is saying. I'm wondering because this is a brief. Would it be smart to do away with the summary and the page contents box? Rather than getting right into this page? Do we need the summary and page contents on this document at all?
Shawn: Good question. We did a lot of back and forth. 2 things: let's keep open on that. Second, this is intended to be a push we are assuming that people won't stumble on this. If we are successful, people may not have looked at the WAI site, they may not know about the toc etc. Maybe here we don't need the full header.
<shawn> minimal header https://
Shawn: If you see the minimal header, that might help as we want them to focus on the content.
<shawn> https://
Shawn: Any initial thoughts on that?
Michele: People have banner blindness no matter what. So, to Brent's point, that is content above the fold. If you only see the content above the fold, what should that content say in case you don't scroll down.
Michele: Then, I had the extended question. When we say "example", should we have examples so we want people to do something actionable.
Shawn: That was not our goal. We had not defined that they would make any changes from this. The idea was that they would know about ATAG.
Michele: The idea is to have examples to say that this is an accessible barrier that people can relate to and I don't think any of the examples do that.
Shawn: The timing on this: we need to get a first iteration done in December. So, if you have some suggestions, Michele, that would help.
Shawn: A note on pull-request. If you do one pull request with a lot of changes, it's hard to process. If you do pull requests for each section, that might be easier. Kevin/Shadi?
Shadi: I wish Daniel was here to say what is more comfortable for him. Michele did a great job in a word document. When it's a big revision of wording, this could be more helpful. For simple changes, GitHub is okay. But Daniel would be best to reply.
Kevin: I think the problem with Googledocs is okay except for comments.
Shawn: Michele - if you are comfortable in Word, I think Daniel feels more comfortable, e.g. by email.
@shawn - please put in the email.
Shawn: send it to the WAI editors email.
Shawn: Summary: above the fold, we need to ensure that people are getting the right information.
Kevin: I'm not too concerned with that anymore, as there are other distractions.
Shawn: ATAG and authoring tools are terms we were trying to get away from so as not to scare people away. So, our goal was to do it succinctly.
Shawn: When we are thinking about how much time and energy, let's work on the resources being impactful to meet their goal but not so much time on the polishing.
<Brent> "Did you know that social media tools like direct messagers, blogging sites, collaboration sites, etc. are called Authoring Tools? Guess what, they have accessibility guidelines that you should know about. Here are some examples of user problems..."
Shawn: We have a hard deadline. We have small audiences.
Shawn: Shadi - anything to share knowing your background?
Shawn: We need to do something fast and good :)
Brent: Sharron and Shawn have a great way of wording things and will give a lot of support to Daniel.
Videos for How People Use Web
Brent: We are getting close to sign-off. There is a sign-off survey to bear in mind. We have a really tight schedule for reviewing the raw footage, the voices, voice over etc. just to be able to give a quick review and feedback. Hoping everyone can partake in that.
Shawn: Basically, we have other videos on the WAI site where we chose not to have audio-description. We included a note in the footer where we pointed to other examples. Is everyone is okay with that.
Shadi: To add, an important point, there is the transcript as well on the same page. Just a little more explanation: the abilities and barriers, tools and techniques, these videos are narrated. What taudio describes the videos pretty well. These are border line. There is a transcript which provides the sequences.
<shawn> Shawn adds to the agenda note -- "All videos will have descriptive transcripts with description of the visuals. "
Shadi: We did discuss this in the subgroup, to have the trasncripts as well.
Jade: It might be useful to have some people who have not worked on this to see if it works.
Sharron: I can get that kind of help.
@sharron - I need to go soon at 16h15.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note not separate version
Shawn: one thing to note is that in thinking of tuime, budget, scope a possibility was not to described the stories but the other two sets, even if there was minimal AD we would ONLY have that version. As opposed to Perspectives where we have both AD and non-AD. It would simplfy the time and budget. May only have one, keep that in mind.
Sharron: How do I get the to do the review? Who to coordinate with?
Shadi: Just ask them the question.
Brent: To look a the scripts.
Sharron: How?
Shadi: I will send examples for their review.
… and the scripts are public
Kevin: If we need to change the way we film things we need to know now.
Shadi: Not sure it would change anything.
<shadi> https://
<shadi> "Diverse Abilities and Barriers" & "Tools and Techniques" sections
Kevin: I need to tell the production agency we have signed off at the earliest.
Jade: One of the options might be that they would suggest inserting items into the script - is that not a possibility?
Shadi: I have used previous experince and what I learned to try to insert these things into the narration/script. And if the narration has to change somewhat, it will nto change the filming.
s.not/not
<shawn> sck me
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say possibly a minor change to script woujld save the need for separate AD
Shawn: Want to reiterate that Shadi did a great job of including AD in the narrative.
Brent: Is the idea that we will still have the footer?
Shawn: yes
Shawn: Kevin is it all of them or some of them
Kevin: We'll get the whole lot by Dec 1 with feedback due the following Monday
… I've invited them to the Friday meeting so they hear the feedback directly.
Brent: What Kevin described is that we will get the first batch of footage on Dec 1 and they will need quick turnaround. In the past we've had more time but that is not the case this round. We are going to ask folks to schedule several hours on Thursday and on Dec 2 Friday make the meting 3 hours for the company and the editors can guide us through.
… OK with everyone.
… please respond to the survey by tomorrow. I'll send more info soon.
Shawn: We don't need everyone, only those who are engaged and have reviewed.
Shadi: Big big thanks to Estella, Brent and especially to Jade and Michelle. And of course Kevin for coming in for a final rescue.
Brent: Thansk all, we are adjourned.