Meeting minutes
Lionel_Wolberger: *presents our intro presentation; URL upcoming*
URL for presentation: https://
<AWK> +AWK
<AWK> /me just an FYI but "+AWK"="Present+" :)
Simplification attribute example from the spec: https://
Lionel_Wolberger: Questions, comments, welcome any time.
Lionel_Wolberger: Purpose attribute info from spec: https://
Lionel_Wolberger: *concludes slides* Any thoughs, questions?
AWK: For @simplification, if there are 9 options, is there a way to provide different simplifications, e.g. men/women/kids vs an original set of fall/sports/... (i.e. you are swapping things out, not just removing things)?
Lionel_Wolberger: *Shows the demo page* On the demo page we remove some of the existing options. Are you asking for a _different_ set of options to be presented as the simplified form?
AWK: If the web design team was asked for 12 options, they may pick some. If they were asked what their 6 most important options are, they may be a completely different set.
Janina: This question came out of the COGA meeting too. It's not currently something we know how to do, but it's something we need to figure out. The question raised before was "I need a different simplification at a different time".
AWK: We wouldn't want to collect user-specific info necessarily, but there are already tools on the web that target things for e.g. people in different gender or age range groups.
… Organizations already have this data and it may provide a better personalized experience.
Janina: We've had conversations (incl with TAG) along these lines. 40 years ago you could go to a department store and walk straight in, keep going, and end up leaving out of the other side. This has long since changed, to 'bump into' marketing.
… The web is being complicated in the same way. Some users can't cope when all of these things are pushed at them. As soon as they get a screw driver, they're offered screws. It's easy for people to buy something they don't want. We need to untangle this.
… Again, we don't have that yet, but would be good to have this level of control. "Don't offer to upsell me something related unless I ask for it"
Lionel_Wolberger: This sounds like work companies are doing to gauge intent of the user.
… We see this as a stepping stone, to help people start to access something to begin with, and see what sort of uptake it will get from different sectors (shopping, medical).
… Once you have this markup, you could, e.g. have script that adds 'critical' to the things this user would like.
AWK: This spec doesn't need to solve the data aspect - the tools and data already exist. I guess some sites will use this and most probably won't know about it. Having an AT/plugin ready for people to use if they want (to adjust their simplification preferences) may help. Sites could convey what they thing (from analytics data) is likely to fit the user's interests, with the user offered the option to
customize this.
AWK: Now the author may be saying 'this is what is critical, as it is my site' but in future we want to put the power into the user's hands to say what is of importance to them.
Janina: Agree! We also think that getting this out there to start with, to see if it will reach critical mass, would be good. It isn't yet ready for
… general sites perhaps, but there is content aimed at pepole who face significant barriers accessing the web at all, and it may help to try to support them first. Not that we should cater
… for just one disability group, but we may be able to help this group who are lacking access at all right now.
… Government info, especially things like COVID info, could be a good application here.
AWK: If you _don't_ specify a value for @simplification, is the default one assumed? Or do you not need to specify the attribute in that case?
matatk: Good question; we should clarify (*group agrees*)
Janina: We definitely want to gather data from users by getting it out there, but also not lock too much in. We expect a wide variety of adadptations.
Janina: We need to find out what works for users and need to know what works for users, and /
[oops; scribe malfunction whilst trying to do a substitution!]
Janina: We may find some users want to simply _move to_ the critical things on the page, rather than removing the non-critical ones.
Lionel_Wolberger: Let's assume @simplification is in the wild, and some pages use it and some don't. Question: If UAs don't see the attribute markup; do they assume the default level for non-attributed elements?
AWK: In a page that doesn't have any markup, this could be the UA's choice, but tools that provide assumed demographic information for the page, that information could be used to add the markup by default, but the user could be given the chance to override.
matatk: +1 (as with group) to AWK's thoughts.
matatk: We expect a lot of variability between people's needs, and a lot of UAs as a result, which we encourage. Need to figure out when the moment is right to 'call it' on the base markup.
Janina: This has the potential to embody the semantic web! Accessibility is out in front, developing new techniques, because we need to.
Lionel_Wolberger: We are focusing on users in crisis (hence rather prescriptive attributes so far).
CharlesL: ML could be used to help refine the adaptations for a user. If the sementics are there, it can start to build a picture for the user.
AWK: Sites that have cookies and the user says 'yes' remember that you went to "men's clothing" and then "fishing".
Sarah_Wood: This is the world-wide web; cross-cultural factors in user's choices should be considered.
*group agrees*
Lionel_Wolberger: Can any of you help with implementations? Please do!
matatk: Authroing tools could use ML to identify concepts authors want to add, and raise awareness and offer the author the option to include the symbol.
AWK: This fits well with reflow - if the screen doesn't have room for 12 things any more, the tool could ask which are the most important 5?
*group agrees*
matatk: We've had comments that media queries can help here/have overlap and are exploring this with CSSWG. Does anyone watching (putting you on the spot) thing MQs are an exact fit here?
AWK: Not sure; they seem different but would need to do lots of work.
Sarah_Wood: Is there reserch on how people with cognitive disabilities find reflow? Does it help them?
*group agrees this should be looked into and we should ask COGA*
CharlesL: In PDF could you also add symbols to form fields?
AWK: It would need spec and UA support.
<Lionel_Wolberger> CHANGE This allows simplified interfaces with less options or interfaces that emphasize critical features. Adaptations can be based on personalization settings.
<Lionel_Wolberger> TO READ This allows simplified interfaces with fewer options or interfaces that emphasize critical features. Adaptations can be based on personalization settings.
<Lionel_Wolberger> LESS/FEWER
AWK: Don't think this should be compulsary for authors (*group agrees*), but it's well worth exploring.