Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

21 July 2022


Becca_Monteleone, EA, Jennie, julierawe, kirkwood, Le, Rain, rashmi, ShawnT
arron, shawn (partial)
Jennie, lisa, rain

Meeting minutes

<Lisa> regrets

<Lisa> Survey link (public): https://bit.ly/content-usable-v2 Link to survey results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1s2mqTweqrNmB4gSSfC3I-rx31Gl8OJPAUW1v9_gVsSc/edit#responses

<Lisa> sign up to scribe: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list

Check in with all sub-groups and COGA Action Items https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit

<Lisa> actions : https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#

Lisa: We are keeping the updates short today

Shawn: Update on the test group
… Jennie and I met to organize, and get ready
… We are organizing the Google Drive folder
… Our next step is to review the documents
… Our future meetings

Lisa: I saw your requests. The only one doesn't work for the end of August

Shawn: OK, those should work
… We have tried to create some asynchronous work tasks
… Jennie and I will meet, review to be sure work is getting done
… Then we will meet with the group, task out the work

Lisa: Thank you, that sounds good

<Lisa> actions : https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#

Lisa: We are starting with actions, trying to keep it brief
… One suggestion for subgroups: we are each meeting about once per month
… It would be great to meet sometimes as a follow on meeting mid month when your group can do it
… Not in the slot on Thursday
… This will help tasks move faster
… Mental health group?
… I don't think there are important updates
… We are finishing off the analysis - literary review. We want to finish by the beginning of October
… We need everyone to have their papers done by then.
… We had a great session at the conference
… Structural review for Content Usable has a meeting after this

<Lisa> Survey: https://forms.gle/J4gJ2timJwwxS4Jc7

Rain: We are still trying to get the outreach on the form to go beyond
… I created an outreach spreadsheet

<Rain> Outreach spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXjHPCfWm00iAJqmjdwFq_RQ80vKwwxFAoiEGI3NOlM/edit#gid=0

Lisa: We have an agenda item on that topic

Rain: We have analytics from Roy we can start looking at

Lisa: well done on getting out the survey
… Clear Language

Julie: I am getting ready to send out a document to the team with a thought starter for test type for each of the patterns in Silver
… This was Rachael's recommendation
… For those that have a clear yes or no answer
… Then for patterns that are harder to test using this method
… What would be better suited for a procedural test or a protocol
… What did the organization that created the page - what did they do?
… What is their policy? Their process?
… Checking this as opposed to the output
… I will send out to the team some ideas to begin to think about
… When is the next Clear Language meeting?
… I cannot attend the meeting next week

Lisa: Can the Test Plan meet along with the Clear Language group?

Julie: This may be a good thing for the test plan group to debate
… This will help with the Clear Language for Silver

<kirkwood> +1 to both meeting

Lisa: I am asking if they want to move their meeting to August 4th?

Lisa: OK it will be mental health next week, then test plans the week of August 4th
… Thank you Shawn for your flexibility

<Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit#

Lisa: We have a document online that is a summary for what we think the research plan - outline
… 1st is background
… Creating a survey, providing the background
… Finding synergies is what I would like to report back to the larger group
… Ph.D. students can use this as part of their research
… Le had good ideas on working with people
… I need to take to the W3C coordination group how we do it, what's the right way to go about working with people doing their Ph.D's
… If people have other suggestions, that would be fantastic
… If you have any ideas on groups - we have great suggestions already.
… Recruiting people like that would be fantastic
… Have a look at the outline
… The foundational research will be really important
… Then the gap analysis will let us know what research is necessary
… The note can be after the second version of Content Usable
… Images subgroup

Jennie: no updates

Lisa: I think we should do subgroup updates every one week, and member updates on the opposite week

<Rain> +1

Lisa: And if we are meeting every 2 weeks, does that sound ok to the subgroup leaders


<julierawe> +1

Lisa: OK, I am seeing agreement on that
… Rain is working on the APA issue 264
… Next week we will have something
… There is a draft from the WHO that I sent to the list

<Lisa> https://www.who.int/news-room/events/detail/2022/07/18/default-calendar/call-for-feedback-on-the-draft-who-global-report-on-health-equity-for-persons-with-disabilities

Lisa: We are not making a response as COGA
… If you want to make individual responses, we can discuss it next week
… Does that work?
… EO

Julie: I updated the COGA document, noting I had sent the side by side comparison to EO on July 12
… Kevin was on vacation, so we are waiting for a response
… I am still drafting our responses to EO's revised personal stories
… I will send that to the COGA team to review, before sending it to EO

Lisa: Thank you
… Do you want to update the action there?
… I think we will stop the actions there
… There are actions from the face to face - a lot is approaching people who might be doing literary reviews
… That we may want to reference, or use
… Anyone doing literary reviews for the mental health research group - reach out to Rain and myself if you have any questions

Draft from the who https://www.research.net/r/WHOReportHealthEquityPWDs Deadline August 5

<Lisa> close item 2

Reminder send the survey for UXR

Lisa: This survey needs to be sent out

Rain: We need people to send this out - you, everyone on this call
… Also communities that you work with

<Rain> Survey outreach tracker: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXjHPCfWm00iAJqmjdwFq_RQ80vKwwxFAoiEGI3NOlM/edit#gid=0

Rain: When we have the community group next week I will be asking them to share with their communities as well
… This spreadsheet (linked above) - when you send out to someone please share when you sent it, to whom you sent it
… There is a column for resending
… The deadline for responding to the survey is set to September 15th because a lot of people are away from their computer because of summer
… We should resend again in early September
… This will also helps us keep track of the communities we are sending to, and who has access to those communities
… This will help for future surveys
… We also have a blurb at the top in row 1
… You can copy and edit this to share the survey
… The direct link to the survey has a bit.ly short link

<Rain> Direct link to the survey: https://bit.ly/content-usable-v2

Rain: I was advised by some that saw the bit.ly that some won't click on this link because they won't know where it is going

<kirkwood> could we put direct link in there a link to the survey in the outreach record ?

Rain: you can say that this links to a Google form

<kirkwood> oh ok thanks!

Rain: John K is asking if we can put a direct link , and yes, I will add it there as well
… We want to try to end the survey on September 15
… A number of people have shared on LinkedIn
… That only goes to the country you are in, or the people that follow you
… This is why we mostly have people responding from the US and Canada
… For those on the call not in the US and Canada - please post on your networks as well
… I would like to see over 200 responses - we have 46 now

Lisa: This is a great survey. If only Rain sends it out, there is a large number of Google responders

<Rain> Huge +1 to Lisa's comment. The results are very biased right now!

Rashmi: When I posted it on LinkedIn I got great feedback
… They want to provide feedback about the structure about the document. They want to connect personally
… Who should I connect them with?

Rain: It would be great if you could make that connection between me and those individuals, and share what they are sharing

Rashmi: Great

Rain: As a group - there are some things that we had to do in the form that are not cognitively accessible because of how research is done in terms of disclosure
… Great feedback has been received
… If any of the feedback is around this, I can share with the group, and this is good feedback to get

Lisa: I am taking a note
… When we make feedback, we need a way to provide feedback that doesn't require writing at all

<Lisa> well done jenny

<julierawe> Way to go, Jenny!

<Lisa> fantastic

<Rain> Thank you, Jennie! Please add to the outreach spreadsheet when you have the chance: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXjHPCfWm00iAJqmjdwFq_RQ80vKwwxFAoiEGI3NOlM/edit#gid=0

<julierawe> I mean Jennie :)

<ShawnT> +1 to julierawe

<Becca_Monteleone> For future surveys - I have some experience making both informed consent documents and data collection cogntiively accessible - at least on the academic research side.

Review resolutions from ftf. See https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-coga-minutes.html

Jennie: I shared the information about the survey in the Office of Accessibility newsletter - link is posted to the list. This went to 2481 subscribers

Lisa: I want to get to the functional review
… Let's get these done in 1 or 2 minutes
… The Face to Face was a great meeting
… The other thing we had - if people want to click on the minutes
… We had one resolution
… In Content Usable - this may be a structural issue
… People are confusing the name of the pattern with the what to do section
… The "what to do" was done to help direct people to what to do
… The names were chosen with lots of considerations
… Including do they fit in the nav bar at the side
… With that result, they are inaccurate
… We need to think about - is that ok? Do we need to rename the patterns?
… When we are doing things like using them in methods, in Silver
… Please don't use the name, use the pattern
… In Clear Language
… Avoid double negatives - the actual pattern is not to use double negatives to express a positive
… This helps with internationalization
… We haven't found a language for which this isn't true
… The resolution was
… When writing a pattern method
… And changing objective names, or the pattern to something else - that has to come back to the group, the bigger group
… They need a chance to say "hang on, I remember why we didn't do that in the 1st place"
… And they may say "we didn't do that because"...
… That's a resolution
… If people aren't happy with that, we can revisit it.
… It seems sensible to me
… As a consensus group, we need to bounce these things off of the group

Lisa: John are you on mute?
… John we will come back to you

Julie: I totally get the point about needing to be more specific about double negatives to express a positive
… In the current Content Usable, the name is Avoid...

Lisa: Yes, the names got edited.
… They were made to fit in the left hand navigation bar
… They are not accurate
… In the What to do section, they are accurate
… Don't rely on the pattern name
… Maybe we need to review these
… In the described by section - the description got ignored by the label

John K: That was my issue too
… and I just don't recall on this where there are, from the double negative perspective, it is standard to use them in one language
… I find it difficult that we are trying to use this
… There are other languages as well where this is very standard

Lisa: We weren't
… We had in the actual description of the pattern
… What we had was a description, then it got edited to fit as a label
… A second point I am taking away from this is that we need to go through the labels that are now the titles of the pattern
… We have to make sure that they are accurate. They don't have to be detailed

John K: that makes sense

Lisa: This was a first draft, we are going to make mistakes like that
… Let's make sure that you won't do the wrong thing by just reading the label

Julie: I did wonder why the pattern was not named "use a simple structure"
… This solves 2 problems: to say avoid double negatives, nested clauses - this sounds like different things

<kirkwood> “simple structure” works great

Julie: But the title actually does address this

Lisa: Sometimes these mistakes are crucial!
… It is only because of confusing the title name and the pattern - you are going to suggest the wrong thing
… I think we are going to have to add to our list
… Checking this

Rain: I want to clarify for the group the resolution
… This example from the Clear Language is why we have the resolution
… The resolution is that as we are working on things like the materials with the Clear Language we are trying to put into Silver
… We will have to, at times, change wording, break things up into different components from what maps to Making Content Usable
… The resolution: when these types of activities occur, before we do more work on a particular element after trying to make one of those changes
… That we bring those changes back to this group to verify that this group knows that change is accurate
… I want to be sure we don't focus on the one single example
… This is more of a process concern
… This will help with the Silver work, and the update to Content Usable

<julierawe> +1 to Rain

Rain: We will be updating language and we may risk these types of issues

Lisa: Thank you
… We have to look at these failures as fantastic - we can learn from them, make our next version clearer, and improve our process
… This will happen more and more if we don't address it
… Hopefully we will find issues with the process early

Who will be at tpac

Lisa: Who will be at TPAC?

Jennie: I am attending virtually - registration complete

<Lisa> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2022

<ShawnT> ME!!!!!

<ShawnT> I'll be there! super excited!

<Rain> 0 at the moment, working on figuring out travel with my manager

<krisanne> I'm still up in the air about going in person.

Lisa: We may need someone to be the point person
… to work out logistics

<ShawnT> Can we keep this information in the action items document?

Lisa: If I don't get there, we may ask Shawn to be the point person

Finish functional needs review https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit#

Lisa: Yes, Shawn, copy it into the action items

Lisa: I think we are up to Learning, and we got agreements on learning
… Memory: short term or working memory is in the comments
… These are normally different things

<ShawnT> added a section

<ShawnT> ... in the document

Lisa: We felt that they missed out other things
… Are we correct with these comments?

<Lisa> any objections?

Lisa: Executive Function
… We thought that maybe some of these go into mental health
… Rain suggested self regulation and I think that is a better term

<kirkwood> I would have pacing in there

<Becca_Monteleone> +1 for regulation

Lisa: Any comments?

<Lisa> any objections?

John K: Pacing doesn't seem to be in the executive part

Lisa: We have it in the new section

John K: processing speed is one thing, but self pacing, which is executive function
… purposefully slowing things down, taking breaks, slowing the speed of things down
… This is an executive function skill

Lisa: I just added it
… Is everyone comfortable with that?

<Lisa> any objections?

Lisa: I will make a clean version at the side
… Mental health: we have emotional regulation
… triggers, mode
… mental health
… This needs more work
… I think we want to delay that
… Should we delay this?

John K: I have a difficult time with this one
… how to approach it in the construct

Lisa: This one we can maybe pass on to the mental health subgroup
… Cognitive and sensory we have asked for this to be removed

Lisa: Visual memory is usually part of memory. Rain is suggesting that some goes into language

Jennie: where will we post something like central auditory processing disorder

Lisa: I think this is less about where it is in the brain, and more about the functional needs

(discussion happened about what is missing by removing the longer list item)

(Lisa added some examples into the document)

Jennie +1

<Lisa> Language (from different sources, such as auditory discriminatory, visual memory etc)

<Lisa> any objections?

Lisa: We are going to ask cognitive and sensory intersections to be removed
… Any objections?
… Next is new proposed buckets
… Any objectives?

John K: What does fluency mean in this case?

Jennie: I believe it may have been EA that asked for that to be there

Lisa: This ends the COGA main meeting
… Subgroup meeting happens next

<Rain> +1 to combining, sounds good!

<julierawe> For Le: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit#heading=h.1sw3jym07njn

Structure Review For Content Useable and the Research Plan and Strategy

<Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit#heading=h.bls0z8ekj5k3

<Lisa> reserch plan

take up item 9

Google Drive Link for analytics: https://drive.google.com/corp/drive/folders/1weE_PbvHGJUm4pdzaKp2TBvLAF66A-SH

we can only get 3 month data

rain: and data needs to be parsed.

any volenteres

rain: is there someone in this group who has talent with data of this type and pulling useful information out of it

also the time spent is useful

where they go to and come from is useful

people over 5 minuets, over ten muinits

shawn might be able to do some

rain: we need to decide first what we want

Lisa: make a Google Doc to collect our questions that we want to understand
… Put the information we want into a spreadsheet

write some macros

john is concerned about removing data. bounces are important

<ShawnT> +1 to convert them to excel

john to look at files

Spreadsheet to include the data and review: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YitWbImy9QSPpmTAzOo_Jcg6jOg9Xe--kj3uHe5rHD0/edit#gid=0

we want to do this on a few pages

rain: our goal were pages are coming from, and going next

john: what is our goals?

rain: how they are using it

jouhn: you cant do that without cookies

rain: we have some within the site

<Zakim> Add, you wanted to questions, how many more the five miunets

lisa wants to know what issue papers and sections of document are being looked at

<ShawnT> Is there a tool that can parse this data?

next item

close item 6


Lisa: research group has a survey, and we have questions

… can we do a duplicate of the survey and edit it?

Rain: yes, we can

lisa to make reserch survey

Lisa: will take an action to create the research survey

Rain: copied content useable structure survey to use as a starting point: https://docs.google.com/forms/u/5/d/1-VdpaYq0qLk0bZYryimWb-VL_tlklX-D1Uvtd2btzrw/edit?fromCopy=true

next item

close item 7

next item

the name of the folder is the page url

Lisa: we need to review the pattern names. Where do we collect these?
… should it be part of the structure?
… Also, would like someone to review and contrast the objectives. Are they as good as they can be?

rain: it is part of stucture

Rain: part of overall information architecture which is why it's part of structure
… and part of our next steps

Lisa: we also have our whole issues thing
… need to figure out which ones belong to structure, research, and a different subgroup
… also where do we collect feedback from the group? Do we have a page to collect it?
… rather than asking us to fill out the form?

<ShawnT> Issue Management in Google drive: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1bNyKOcVYJ__fq66i7sljE_1rxyS6L35Z

Julie: has questions that would like a platform to raise informally

Julie: I would like to open comments informaly
… then if there is reason we can make them more formal


rain: can we dedicate a call (can be subgroup call. Maybe more then 1

<kirkwood> +1

<kirkwood> to Rain’s suggestions to collect and discuss on call

Julie: is there a way in the doc to organize the comments?

julie: there is a way to organise your comment

Julie: such as starting the comment with the section that you are commenting on
… also to help us make sense of a wide variety of comments

maybe we can add tages to help catgrise it

Julie: by giving examples of how to give the markers



Lisa: think we all agree we want to have a Google Doc
… for informal collection
… with markers, tags
… and then have a conversation on a call or two
… at least two calls
… a thursday call that goes into the subgroup time

… that gives us two hours to discuss


<kirkwood> +1

<ShawnT> +1

<kirkwood> suggest having it as a standardized name on agenda

Julie: love that we will budget time for this, but nervous about eating into subgroup time too much

Julie: a lot of the conversation might be about little things

julie: a lot of them wwill be litle

some are big picture and some are litle

Julie: is there a forum for having a big picture discussion about the overall structure and giant sections

rain: we also get big picture as well

big picture first

Lisa: want to make sure we start with the big picture

but they will go back and forth

rain: there will be suggestion, on stucture and that can spring bourd it

were can we give positve feedback?

it is perfect for some people

Lisa: diffrent enry points?

rain: we need to anlaize who likes what

next item

Lisa took on an item to do the survey

rain: next step is to parse the feedback

lisa: next steps add to https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CeqiSy3tVDoeBzCG8LpkyFT1fvugGk86JuT6NvfSiAA/edit

rain's next step: parse feedback and create high fidelity concepts for architecture shifts

Lisa: scedule the calls

John to look at data from roy

John K taking a look at the data from Roy and seeing what we can learn from that

Julie to take a look at the Google Doc for gathering feedback on Making Content Usable

Julie: currently called "suggested new content" -- should it be adjusted to also enable people to share changes, thoughts, etc.?

Lisa: also adding "questions we have about the document"
… which may lead to suggestions

Lisa: continue to add the types of things to the document, including what tags, etc.

Lisa: Julie, can you edit the document, and then I'll send to the group?

lisa: add to agenda?

Julie: yes, taking action to play with the document, then Lisa will add to the agenda

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 192 (Tue Jun 28 16:55:30 2022 UTC).


Maybe present: john, jouhn, Julie, Lisa, Shawn