Clreq Editors' Call

17 May 2022


Bobby, Eric, huijing, xfq, Zhengyu

Meeting minutes

Ideographic spaces at the beginning or end of lines


xfq: we discussed this before

xfq: I filed an issue against CSSWG and their feedback was to use special markup and CSS (white-space and line-break properties) without changing any default behavior of CSS

xfq: Are we satisfied?

Eric: OK

huijing: This situation is special

Zhengyu: Unicode behavior is inconsistent with Chinese requirements

xfq: yes, U+3000 is BA per UAX #14, and it suppresses breaks *before* the character

xfq: while U+3000 in Nuo tai suppresses breaks *after* the character

Eric: Are we going to describe this requirement in clreq?

huijing: we can add a note

xfq: If I remember correctly, there is no mention of ideographic spaces at all in the current clreq text
… If we add it, which section would be appropriate?
… § 3.1.4 Prohibition Rules for Line Start and Line End? Or a new section?

[Discuss the differences between spaces/spacing as content and spaces/spacing as style]

Eric: The behavior of the two (Nuo tai and religious classics) is not exactly the same

Zhengyu: § 3.1.4 is only about punctuation marks

Eric: I personally don't think we should put punctuations and spaces together

Zhengyu: Is there a similar need for Japanese?

xfq: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6903#issuecomment-997586253


Eric: ^ This example is related to punctuation

Eric: it is common in vertical writing mode, rare in horizontal writing mode

Zhengyu: This is more related to punctuation marks.

Eric: we can add a new section in § 3.4 Paragraph Adjustment Rules

Eric: i.e., § 3.4.5

Bobby: sounds good to me

Eric: can you work on it, Zhengyu?

Zhengyu: I don't think it's a "paragraph adjustment rule"
… We should describe the composition rules of these two cases first
… then we say that these rules can be implemented with full-width spaces
… then we describe the behaviour when they are implemented with full-width spaces
… what about putting it in § 3.5 Line Adjustment?

[Discuss whether 3.4 or 3.5 is more suitable]

Eric: OK, so we can put it into § 3.5


xfq: there's a section called § 3.7 Other Rules of Japanese Typesetting in jlreq

huijing: miscellaneous

xfq: we don't have this section in clreq

Zhengyu: § 3.5 Line Adjustment in clreq corresponds to § 3.8 Line Adjustment in jlreq

huijing: we don't have § 3.4 Inline Cutting Note (Warichu) and § 3.6 Tab Setting

Eric: we can add a section called Other Rules

Eric: It is almost impossible to see Nuo tai now in mainland China

Bobby: Taiwan's official documents no longer need it either

Bobby: But you can still find it in letters

[Discuss the arrangement of sections]

Eric: can you work on it, Zhengyu?

Zhengyu: OK

Go through the pull request list



xfq: I added a new section to our editorial guidelines, called Rules for Punctuation

Eric: looks good to me

xfq: I'll merge it then


xfq: both #459 and #461 solves the italics issue

huijing: I only noticed #459 after I sent #461

huijing: I think the selector in #459 is too specific
… if we merge #461, we can close #459
… any other punctuation marks I should include in the unicode range for the punctuations?

xfq: U+2E3A TWO-EM DASH [⸺]

xfq: U+2014 EM DASH [—]

xfq: U+2013 EN DASH [–]


xfq: U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT [·]

Eric: U+007E TILDE [~]

Eric: U+002F SOLIDUS [/]

Zhengyu: if we add -apple-system and BlinkMacSystemFont to the font stack, we should also add system-ui
… because system-ui is standardized in css-fonts


xfq: I'm afraid some users will have problems described in https://infinnie.github.io/blog/2017/systemui.html

[Discss the issue in the article]

Zhengyu: This article is old, Edge now uses the Blink engine

huijing: Let's not add system-ui for now

xfq: agreed
… see also https://github.com/w3c/clreq/pull/461/files#r863867852

huijing: I'll update the PR


Eric: we should unify the usage

Eric: we should add the space

Eric: the question is which code point we should use

[Discuss which code point to use]

xfq: let's use U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE

xfq: we can also mention it in https://github.com/w3c/clreq/blob/gh-pages/EDITING.md

xfq: Would you please send a PR, Zhengyu?

Zhengyu: OK

Some text emphasis marks are too far from their base text

Bobby: Under Safari, the emphasis marks are too far from their base text for some Japanese and Chinese fonts

Eric: This is a question of whether the rendering looks good or not

Bobby: another issue is that some emphasis marks are too small, like the one in hiragino sans, it's almost invisible


The filled circle is U+25CF '●'

Eric: in Adobe InDesign, you can adjust the size and distance of the emphasis marks

Bobby: On the web, this is font dependent and cannot be customized using CSS

[Discuss the requirements of adjusting the size and distance of interlinear punctuations]

Eric: We should elaborate on interlinear punctuations in the clreq document


Zhengyu: Ideally, interlinear punctuations and ruby should not affect line spacing
… but we need to consider whether the line spacing needs to be adjusted when the line spacing is small

Eric: This is a special case

Zhengyu: There are more interlinear punctuations in ancient books

Eric: The processing method is the same

Eric: I'll draft some text in a new issue

Next teleconference time

June 14 (Tuesday), 19:00-20:00 (UTC+8)

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 188 (Sat Jan 8 18:27:23 2022 UTC).