Meeting minutes
Wendy: We will give people a moment more to join
Wendy: Looking at the agenda
Introductions and Agenda Curation
Wendy: Let's dive in
… anyone who is new to the call who would like to introduce themselves?
… welcome to all who are here
… we had a few questions come in on Topics API
… don't know if we have anyone who is interested in sharing updates from IETF activities?
… look at dashboard, and note on upcoming meetings
… from other W3C groups such as Privacy CG and PAT CG
… any other business for today's or upcoming agendas?
Questions on Topics API (Elad)
Wendy: Let's dive into the questions on Topics API
… Elad you raised some questions on the list and got some pointers back from Michael Kleber
… are you here and do you want to raise any of those questions to the call?
… Is Elad on the call?
Elad: hello
<npd> were the questions re Topics or more re FLEDGE/PARAKEET?
Wendy: you raised some questions on the Topics API; what would you like to discuss?
Elad: On FLEDGE
… we can talk about them here or at meeting tomorrow
… whatever is a btter place
Wendy: thank you for the correction there
… Michael, as convener of the FLEDGE meeting, where do you suggest those questions go?
MichaelK: I am happy to talk about them in either place
… the FLEDGE calls happening every other week have a number of people talking about that already
… if you want a conversation about how people are thinking about using it, then tomorrow would be an excellent place to ask those questions
… you have option to get answers from me, other Google engineers and others in adtech community who have been designing this with us
… Here, we could have a high-level overview discussion
<npd> do these questions also apply to parakeet, or to any in-browser auction model?
MichaelK: but for getting into details with folks who have been thoughtful in the past, tomorrow would be better
<wseltzer> Other related meetings
Elad: Ok, I will join tomorrow's overview; and maybe another time for the FLEDGE overview here
Wendy: note in minutes where there is a GitHub listing of related meetings that happen on a regular basis
<angelina_iabtechlab> can we just get a quick update where FLEDGE?
Wendy: along with the FLEDGE calls, group discussing PARAKEET has regular calls
… and other groups schedule one-offs
… always good to get reminders of where the discussions are taking place
<kleber> Tomorrow's FLEDGE meeting coordinates are in https://
Wendy: I see a few questions in irc
… if these questions apply to PARAKEET and other in-browser auction models
… Michael, maybe we can get a quick update
… and a little discussion on how broadly those questions might apply
Kleber: let me pull up a few links
Wendy: And thank you for willing to be put on the spot
Kleber: First,
… let me drop in a link
<npd> and thanks for the github issue on those meetings, I had indeed lost track of having both FLEDGE and PARAKEET meetings at alternating times
Kleber: developer documentation
<kleber> Developer documentation about FLEDGE is here: https://
Kleber: about FLEDGE
… so that might be the best place for people to start
… if they are interested in finding out about the current state of FLEDGE and will be updated as things progress
… High-level overview
… FLEDGE is the API inside the Chrome Privacy Sandbox
… that is addressing
… collection of use cases in which advertisers or other marketers build their own custom audiences
… and subsequently target an ad at those audiences
… it is supposed to be side-by-side with Topics API (formerly FLoC)
<wseltzer> wseltzer: scribe+
MichaelK: We've been working on FLEDGE for more than a year, just sent notice of intent to experiment
… code present in chrome browser
… available for initial testing in the nightly build of chrome soon
<kleber> Chrome Intent to Experiment: https://
MichaelK: Right now at the very beginning of the phase where an initial version is available in development versions for testing
… as it says in the intent to experiment, we hope to begin an origin trial for FLEDGE sometime during chrome milestone 101
… for chrome beta users, that version will be out in April
Kleber: Saw a hand go by
angelina_iabtechlab: thanks Michael!
Angelina: we are hosting browser OS task force
… may be some confusion with agencies and brands to test out FLEDGE
… give some clear instructions; steps to take
… that's where
… and understand who on this call or from adtech side
… is working with publishers to see how that option works
… get those interests from advertisers...
… just a couple of things to think about
… any instructions you can provide me to share with IAB members would be great
Kleber: let me be clear; the stage we are at
… this is the very first time the code for FLEDGE has been available in the browser
… to the audience most likely to be interested is developers who have never tried FLEDGE or who are not yet prepared
… no chance FLEDGE is a feature of any products
… only ad tech companies that write their own JS and want to experiment with this new technology in the browser can begin to do so
… those are the parties who are most likely to begin to do so
… for most advertisers and publishers the right thing to do is to talk to your adtech providers
… whether a publisher ad platform or a real-time bidding partner that traffics ad campaigns on your behalf
… and ask if they are interested in FLEDGE, what they are doing about it, what their future plans might hold
… but too soon to make a difference in their lives
Angelina: So look to the adtech partners first
… and if they want to create those relationships
… where they are creating the interest groups is my question
Kleber: your question is exactly right
… if ad buyers are interested in trying out FLEDGE to try it out v how they are used to doing ad buying
… then an early step is to use new JS API to make interest gropus
… and advertisers should have conversation with adtech partners that traffic ads on their behalf
… the API to create IGs will exist in the browser for a small slice of people for whom FLEDGE is available
… start small during April 2022
AramZS: in terms of the ability to start pushing IGs into the browser via brand sites
… one researcher noticed that Google tag manager has the supporting code
… wondering how to use Google tag manager
… by pushing those Topics?
Kleber: I have not heard any announcement other than from Chrome
… for interest or timeline for participating in early trials
… I saw the Twitter post I think you are referring to, Aram
… reading through the JS myself
… my impression is the code in Google Tag Manager could not add people to IGs
… but set up to test if Topics APIs existed in a browser, but not to use them if they did; may well be this is a very early stage in which some developer team is trying to figure out if FLEDGE is available
… this is not reflecting insider knowledge; just reading screen shots on Twitter
AramZS: thanks for your response
Brian: Do you know if FLEDGE API developer documentation is up to date at this time?
Kleber: things are rapidly changing
… we just announced on Friday to have something on 101; not sure if this week's news is not yet updated
Brian: I don't want to make inaccurate assumptions
<npd> (it says "Updated on Monday, March 21, 2022" which seems pretty recent)
Brian: if documentation is out of date
… so wait for 101?
Kleber: Please ask if you see something out of date
… to make sure documentation is fully current
Brian: Thanks
Wendy: all right, seeing no one on queue
… look forward to more discussions at the FLEDGE meeting
… and move on to
… the recent IETF meeting
… I know there were a few areas where we heard there was some work going on in IEtF
… they had a virtual hybrid meeting last week
… with some in-person participation in Vienna, and online participation
Updates on IETF activities?
Wendy: did anyone who participate have any relevant updates?
Wendy: I had planned to ask Sam Weiler
… for updates, but he had to give regrets for this meeting; we will get Sam's input at future meeting
Nick: I attended several of these meetings last week
… I can share my observers' perspective
<npd> https://
Nick: the Privacy Preserving Measurement group had its first meeting
… just dropped in their agenda
… a series of work items related to aggregated measurement
… where browsers and servers can submit data
… if non-collusion, no individual server would learn individual records
… generic protocol
… for browser telemitry
… which pages most popular
… that sort of thing
… also suggested for use for measurement or attribution of advertising
… who saw what ads, without revealing browser history
https://
Nick: that was their first meeting
… Cloudflare and ISRG, interoperability testing some work...
… to do this non-collusion
<npd> https://
Nick: another group might be Prvacy Pass
… for doing tokens in the browser
Nick: and not log into a particular web site
… drafts discussed were about rate limiting
… could be useful for paywalls
… prove one's humanness and submit tokens to prove that
https://
Nick: without having to log into a particular website or reveal things
… might be interesting for ad fraud
… another topic of interest
… was the OHAI
<npd> https://
Nick: an oblivious HTTP WG
https://
Nick: idea that we could set up some proxies that allow requests to go through
… by stipping off info
… maybe for telemitry or DMS
… send some data but don't want to know user's ID
… that was also a meeting discussing how to prevent abuse while still maintaining that identity-hiding property
… GDPR and IP addresses discussed in Privacy Research Group
… those were the relevant groups
AramZS: thanks, Nick
AramZS: looking at privacypass, Cloudflare experimentation
… is there any experimental result for review?
<AramZS> The privacy pass documents link was broken, here's the working one - https://
wbaker: Yahoo has put togethter a demo infrastructre of trust tokens
… if it's of interest, I could bring relevant engineers for a discussion
blassey: chrome has been running origin trials for trust tokens as well
<AramZS> Thanks!
blassey: hope some of the participants will be able to share data soon
wseltzer: sounds as though we should bring those prototypes on to a future agenda
bmay: to Nick, did you hear anti-fraud discussions?
npd: rate limiting work
Nick: that rate-limiting work could be very useful
… for different types of fraud protection work
… my assessment is maybe we need to have that conversation in more detail
… may help for this purpose, but not sure we've done a detailed use case
… also the OHAI is having discussion about abuse
… in general having a proxxy
… and have proxy say this is a suspicious client
… and how to pass signal along without breaking privacy requirement
… not sure if that is relevant for your use cases
Brian: very helpful, thank you
Wendy: I will ask Sam if there is any additional information he wants to bring up
… IETF also maintains lots of archives
Upcoming meetings in other groups
Wendy: and put pointers into the minutes so those who want may follow up with more detail
… a couple pointers to other upcoming meetings
https://
Wendy: pointed to the GitHub issue tracker
… and a few more coming up in the next few weeks
… the Privacy CG is holding an ad hoc meeting on cross-site cookie standardization
… that is open to all participants in the Privacy CG, which anyone may join and attend
… many questions that have arisen is this group
… if cross-site cookies are going away, what will replace that functionality?
https://
Wendy: Privacy CG is bigger than Adv, but adv use cases will be one of the subjects of that discussion
… and see more of the issues raised there
… some reading material linked
… and I encourage people who are interested
… to read up and consider attending that discussion
… Also, note that the Private Advertising Technologies (PAT) CG is holding another F2F on April 5th and 7th
… and invites participation
<AramZS> *waves*
Wendy: Aram is a co-chair of that group
… do you want to share any specifics?
AramZS: sure
… note that the meeting is
<AramZS> https://
AramZS: set with times
… on the 5th and 7th of April
… put link in irc with info on timing
… we are in process of locking in the agenda
… last chance to make a request to be added to the ageda
… to see the agenda as it's being drafted
… we have a GitHub project
<AramZS> https://
AramZS: that is the sort of working agenda
… for people curious about what we are talking about
… please reach out if anyone has a question
… we look forward to seeing you there
… CGs are open to all as long as you sign up and follow what's specified
Wendy: Thank you, Aram, sounds interesting
… if those topics - reach and frequency use cases, opionated...
… and a draft charter for a working group under discussion
… this will be a two-day meeting
… seeing no further questions
Dashboard review https://w3c.github.io/web-advertising https://w3c.github.io/web-advertising/dashboard/
Wendy: Call up a pointer to the Dashboard for other topics
… from scope of issues we have had under consideration
… that people would like to raise for discussion
… We see the breadth of
… places that topics are being discussed
… terrific to see focused discussion happening in other groups
… this remains a place for coming back to overview questions and pointers to those discussions
… we have a lot of expertise
… in here of 'where is a particular discussion taking place'
… 'what's the status of given proposals'
… and people with experience
… think of this group as place for sharing and finding
… a home for it
… a good mode for graduating ideas into more focused incubation
… into some of our community groups
… and get development of specifications work
… and work toward Working Groups, test implementations
… things that help us to see what can be the future of better privacy-preserving web adverising
… if no one else on queue
Pedro: hello
… from Resonate
… finding pointers, maybe learn about
… where are the main conversations taking place for all things IP blindness
… IP obfuscation things
… a particular group taking that on?
BradL: the main place for IP Blindness is at the IETF PEARG group
Pedro: Link?
Wendy: excellent
<npd> pearg didn't directly discuss that work item during the most recent meeting, fwiw
<blassey> https://
Wendy: any other questions?
Wendy: Nick mentions that subject wasn't discussed directly at the most recent meeting
… but it's part of a set of documents and best place to go for on-going discussion and comment
… thanks, Brad
<pedro_alvarado> Thank you Brad!
Wendy: seeing no one else
… Is there any other business for this meeting?
AOB
Wendy: Our next scheduled meeting is April 12th
… I invite questions
… and comments and proposed agenda items
… I'll follow up with a few questions that came up here
… and see what people would like to discuss
… feel free to share those questions and agenda items in advance
… to get the right people to respond
… or develop new proposals
… with that we will conclude this meeting and give you back some time today
[adjourned]