<scribe> scribe:jon_avila

Discussion related to Proximity User Needs (https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/13

<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/133#discussioncomment-2007661

Laura: trying to incorporate comments as they come in

Shawn: Go through each section by section. First one is user needs
... wanted to provide background. Awareness of WAI resources. we do have detailed user stories and personas for people who want to dive and understand
... Just a very brief quote - illustrate and to make more connection to the user. Not intended to be comprehensive. The target user is the design and developer to tell them what to do. Keep user need very succinct to make elsewhere.
... use separate resource

Sam: take out 20/40 and what is different from student and magnficiation?
... are we talking about screen reader or vision?

Laura: just filled in from what Jon had in other.

Sam: Point of regard can be related to audio stream as well. What they are listening to.
... need to get audio in order in HTML.
... should make visual proximity

<Sam> yes

Shawn: Does everyone agree we want scope to be visual?

<Sam> +1

<shawn> +1

<laura> +1

+1

Bhoomika: thinking about users who use both visual and audio together.

Shawn: What if we said we would address audio separately.

Sam: Can note in this article that we mention in guidance and relate.

<shawn> Bhoomika +1 having audio separate

RESOLUTION: Make this guidance about visual proximity - we may do audio one separate - we should make reference to audio.

Sam: How many user needs do we need.

<shawn> Jon: coudl be close to screen. could be different reasons

Sam: acuity, tunnel vision, similarity and difference when magnification is used. You could have 4 such as field loss. Or something who has adjusted the viewing distance.

Bhoomika: Related to acuity and describing what it really means - how important is to specify acuity versus how much as user can or cannot see.

Sam: Don't think this is an acuity issue - more important to understand how much is the screen being magnified or zoomed. Is it helping to specify acuity.
... Could specify in brackets but not main focus.

Shawn: Purpose of user need - not trying to explain - but help understand what user experience. Doesn't matter what they are using.

Laura: needs to be more general.

Shawn: do we even need to say - can we say something - the user can only see a small amount of content at a time because they use x,y,z

Sam: all 3 have the same outcome.

Shawn: The user problem is when the designer doesn't do it well. The solution is when it's done well.

jon_avila: something like I need x,y,z close together because I only see a small portion of the screen at a time.

Shawn: would be good to help people understand the situation

Laura: what should that quote be?

Sam: Quote and then optional details paragraph. Quote from user and then further details of what can cause issue such as tunnel vision.

Shawn: Could follow this format and have these details in the top. We are getting some good input but we have not decided. What is your feeling Laura - do we want to have both a problem and what works well or both in one quote.

Sam: Could includes a works one

Laura: we could do both.

Shawn: If we are going to have both - both points - makes sense to have them more clearly labeled. Easier to process.

Sam: Keep what we have and then create quotes and then compare side by side - quotes make it more human.

Shawn: I'm happy to you Laura. Anyone else have any other closing comments.

Sam: Only in terms of point of regard - where do we introduce the term. We need understanding terminology bit. Focus, field of view.

When do we introduce important terms?

Laura: Bhoomika had introduced terms too. We just have a little bit in the wiki for the glossary. We could link to terms there.

Shawn: Do you think we should have some initial explanation here?

Laura: we could.

Bhoomika: Tooltip or other way to link into term so the user doesn't have to description on same screen.

Sam: Use visual structure in heading - important terms - prefer that to scan and make you decide what to read rather than popups

Shawn: May need to be different for different terms - point of regard - we should put up front - but other things like screen magnifier - those are terms that the target audience of this page knows.

Sam: Really important terminology for this page and then other related terms and then just hyperlinks.

Shawn: Thinking big picture - not just terms but concepts. Something that people to need to understand. Could be more general in that concept. Need something before what to do.
... Proposal we add a new section that comes after the user need and call it important concepts and there we can have terms and it's optional in each one.

Sam: Like to have terms and concepts.

Shawn: Could be based on need - could be terms, concepts, or both.

Sam: Things you need to know.

Laura: good with it.

Bhoomika: Things you need to know we have an assumption. Would go with important concepts and terms

Sam: Everything is a key concept.

<shawn> Jon: user needs have short quote. some link to related personas or use stories

Shawn: Straw proposal - we add a section - we can brainstorm separately on what we call it and we can play offline. For this one we need it. Is everyone ok with it?

Sam: Terms like visual field, focus of attention.
... We agree that point of regard is important term. It's the browser - The complement of that the user's field.

Shawn: We have used visual field in others.

<laura> UAAG point of regard definition: https://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-UAAG20-20151215/#def-point-of-regard

Shawn: Can we wait and move on to know we need to know.

<shawn> Jon: point of regard can be read either way

Shawn: Does everyone agree we will have a resolution a section for important terms like point of regard and leaving open if it needs anything else.

<laura> +1

<Sam> +1

<shawn> +1

<Bhoomika> +1

RESOLUTION: For this one we will have a section for important terms like point of regard and leaving open if it needs anything else.

Discussion related to Proximity What To D

+1

Sam: Nothing in the What to do about testing.
... what to do should give examples of how to test - such as look through your fist.

<shawn> Jon: COGA examples - avoid this, help users to this

Sam: In what to do - give them the test. We focus more on the tests. If what you do is to increase magnification to 600 percent

Shawn: It's a good question - in ideal world you know what you are doing - what you are saying is practical.
... Not sure how this play out in others. The point is up front we want to have them the straw and zoom and maybe couched - not just as tester content but more about the why and how to expeirence

Sam: Forward looking to guidance - for example vanialla statements - if you can't come up with top tips. But say how to test.
... need to do quick test/check else you need to move on.

Shawn: WAI - has an easy check resource. This is kind of along that line.

<shawn> Jon: quick check here might be oversimplification. for others, we probably need more specific

Shawn: is going to be in same place as what is COGA is doing. Ok if there is a strong reason to do something different.
... What if the quick check was just the start.

Sam: Quick check and link to more detail check - have a go at this. In that spirit of experiencing it yourself. If you can give people an empathy experience quick it makes an impact.

Laura: We can add a quick check. I've had that same experience about showing people how to that straw test. then they want to learn more.

Shawn: have a video in the WAI showing to use the straw test.

Laura: we could link to that.

<shawn> video that includes straw test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUfmCvdzqbM&ab_channel=W3CWebAccessibilityInitiative%28WAI%29

<shawn> a/video that includes/WAI video that includes

<shawn> Jon: generic term for proximity of what? contrals and labels, user actions and feedback, sevearl areas.

Sam: Also time - what is the term for user journey and task flow.
... could be navigation, scrolling, reading content, etc.

Shawn: They have a separate - make it easy to find the most important tasks and features. Then a separate one to find the most important actions and information on the page.
... Do we need to have a word for all of those.
... usually means multiple steps
... We may not need term unless we need it.

Sam: What do you look for and check - what are you checking to make sure it still works. What are the checks?

Shawn: Does anyone need to go? We are at 1 hour.

Sam: 15 minutes would be good.

Shawn: proposed resolution is to try having something like a quick check section and give that a try?

+1 give it a try

<shawn> +1 to give it a try

<Sam> +1

<laura> +1

<Bhoomika> +1

RESOLUTION: Try having a section like a quick check section

open issues

Shawn: Laura or anyone else do you have questions that would be good to discuss?

Sam: We don't have a visual example up front.

Shawn: Visual example in user needs would be good.
... Is that good with you Laura?

Laura: Could we move one we have up?

Shawn: Propose - include images at top that relate and illustrate user needs. Potential for problems and what works well.

<shawn> +1

Shawn: Could you use same images

<Sam> +1

+1

<Bhoomika> +1

<laura_> +1

RESOLUTION: include images at the top that relate to and illustrate user needs.

<shawn> Sam & Jon: Maybe show zoom then reflow break procimity

Shawn: A video is better with zoom than static pictures

Support section

Laura: copied from my example - we can change to whatever is needed.

Shawn: One of the drafts - support would cover printing customized - what technology supports this. What technology supports. What users need to know for this.

Sam: Extend to which media queries and proximity and zoom.

Shawn: Do we want to say anyting about proximity and media queries.

<shawn> Jon: I think need to say something. <example of specific example that reacts differently with touch screen than with mouse>

Sam: range of issues when you zoom desktop versus mobile site and new issues on the mobile sheet.

Shawn: one possibility - when some sites media queries you will need to design for an test both.

<shawn> Jon: ... differrent ways that screen magnification works. depending on how configureed, get different experience

<shawn> ... applies to testing

Bhoomika: Maybe something under testing section - things to keep in mind when designers are testing it out.

<shawn> Jon: Both common. common by different groups. historically would have said not browsers scroll 'cause have on screen magnifier. Now responsive starts are pretty common. I don't have data about screen mag users now when using responsive sites

Sam: Focus on zooming or screen mag or are they equally weighted.
... Zooming feels like the better solution - but magnification is trying to cope with the world with intended solution.

<shawn> Jon: Agree. I don't use mag software. I set my screen resolution 800x600. So keeps all on screen, without scrolling.

<shawn> [ Shawn also uses resultion setting , not mag software]

Sam: Adding a scrolling requirement to scroll web page seems like a hack. a best practice is to support zooming to get that right - a magnficiation is a catch up that allows people to cope.

Shawn: That may be more specific than is useful.

Sam: It related to priority - not to exclude one.

Shawn: sounds like to delete support section and add a more details on testing section.

+1

<Bhoomika> +1

<Sam> +1

Shawn: one possibility is a larger testing section.

Sam: I have to drop.

<shawn> Jon: probably testing section. probably think abotu what it looks like. Not a technique that will cover every situation. More of a functional test, not a technical test.

<shawn> ... functional items... ultimately, make sure user can perform the actions and complete the process

<shawn> slh: what abpout media queires?

<shawn> Jon: say they may be used and that needs to be considered during design and testing

<shawn> ... there are some things were I cannot see buttons

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