<scribe> Scribe: Mark Palmer
<scribe> ScribeNick: MarkPalmer
<Sharron> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 17 December 2021
<Sharron> Chair: Brent
<Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
<scribe> Scribe: Mark
<MarkPalmer> Brent: We've been working on survey results. Had request from a task force to extend that survey. Reopened and extended to 4th Jan.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: In the meantime Kevin and team have been working on suggestions so far.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Thanks for comments from everyone. Really helpful. Big change for this resource.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Doing it in reverse or middle order. Survey results not showing anything big other than rewrite of Alex (RSI) and Blair (gender neutral pronouns).
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Alex persona doesn't reflect length of time with RSI and needs to be changed to reflect this.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Starting to rethink the position on gender neutral pronouns. Has created alternative version of page for Blair. Added one sentence.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Page with non-binary called out. Available from agenda. Open it up for quick compare and contrast and initial thoughts.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: I've also had other thought I'll share once everyone has read and had time to comment.
<MarkPalmer> Current page https://deploy-preview-113--wai-people-use-web.netlify.app/people-use-web/user-stories-t
<MarkPalmer> Updated page: https://deploy-preview-113--wai-people-use-web.netlify.app/people-use-web/user-stories-two-alt/
<MarkPalmer> Current page: https://deploy-preview-113--wai-people-use-web.netlify.app/people-use-web/user-stories-two/
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Tried, following chat with Sharron, to call out non-binary in a more concrete way.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Any thoughts on the two versions?
<Howard> I like the change.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: First sentence is perfect way to call out non-binary. Simple and will help anyone thrown off by pronouns.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Agree. When I read it previously with no context in the persona it was distracting. Think this is perfect.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Unfortunately I find this a little hard. Almost feels like I now want to know what that means. Want to stop and look up non-binary.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Identity first v people first language.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: That sentence might stop someone in their tracks. Wanted to expand to say "Blair is autistic person who is also non-binary" to place focus on disability first.
<MarkPalmer> Howard: Concurs with sentence Michele proposed. Otherwise likes the cue re pronouns.
<Leticia> +1 to Michele sentence
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Reading the sentence the autistic part made it seem awkward at first. Unsure because not experience with people with that condition.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: It is terminology that they and allies prefer.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Would be better with "autistic person". Non-binary element was fine unless you didn't know what it means. Do we need to explain what it means?
<MarkPalmer> Brent: One of the things we talked about last time was that the more we call it out the more important it might seem.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: I think that runs the risk of us being distracted from our primary role of accessibility education internationally. Could be problematic.
<MarkPalmer> Howard: I don't have problem with word non-binary. Usually the language suggested to me in past. Quite common term.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: COGA did a bit of research on this. How people with autism want to be referred to. Would support adding the word "person" to the end of the sentence.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Like Deaf community embraces capital D Deaf. Autistic community moving in that same direction.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Want to circle back to clarify definitely identity first (autism). We don't generally emphasise gender in that way and context. e.g. fax I'm cisgender is secondary. We are only calling this out to explain the use of neutral pronouns rather than it being important to the persona.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Certainly that was flagged up as a reason for not doing this.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Guidance on translations in style guide suggest that if we include non-binary gender pronoun it is harder to translate.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: In favour of both identifiers, just less happy with the placement. Would prefer identity first as would autistic community. Reinforce the preference for identity first.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Had to have a bit of a think of where to put this. In order to avoid running into a non-gender pronoun very quickly we did it this way. Otherwise would need complete rewrtite.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: I also support Michele's rationale. Moving away from main purpose of this in my opinion. Put the autistic descriptor first.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Need to look and see how we are doing this elsewhere.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: We do not call out gender elsewhere other than through chosen pronoun.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Was going to ask Michele what she thought of first version.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: First version wasn't ever jarring for me but realise that's not the majority.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Can understand the revision but make the gender identity secondary.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Distraction I felt when I read it was the discontinuity with the other personas.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Do totally get your point because the way it is written conflates the gender identity with the disability.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Would it be helpful for me to mock this up for you?
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Thanks, but it may be that we drop the gender identity and it becomes a moot point.
<MarkPalmer> Laura: Want to support Michele's position. Like moving it to "who also identifies as...". Common language and people will understand it.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: I appreciate I caused the problem and am now almost reversing my position. It's whether or not it's a good idea to go against our own style guide. Debate is not just cultural but also linguistic for languages where non-gender specific pronouns do not exist.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Consider the implications for making resources available internationally.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: We want to be able to translate these things and be forward thinking.
<MarkPalmer> Laura: Was also going to add that last week we talked about why it was important to be inclusive and add a non-binary persona.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Agreed. Just can't see how we get over the language translation problem.
<scribe> Scribe: Sharron
Mark: Does it have to match? Can we use non-gendered in English and cis gender in other languages?
<scribe> Scribe: Mark
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: The answer would be that it would have to match.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Would be a call for chairs.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: If I'm not mistaken there is no reference to they only a couple of references to them.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: They would be the real problem in Spanish, not them.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Last sentence in para 1 does have "they".
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Then that would be problematic still.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Thinking about last weeks conversation. Theme was why not include non-binary in our resources to be on the forefront.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: But if it's going to cause issues with the purpose of the content or translation or even understanding then maybe we shouldn't move into that yet or find a different way.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Which comes back to Kevin's point of whether the side issues might make it too problematic.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Worry would be that this becomes a distractor from the core purpose of the persona.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Agree with trying our best to keep it. Though it's new and forming it is part of inclusion.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Non-binary does not always equal they/them.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Which might help with translation.
<Michele> Suggested update from Michele #1: "Blair is an autistic person who also identifies as non-binary (using “they/them” pronouns). Their autism was diagnosed at an early age because of delays in speech development, sometimes called non-speaking autism. Blair received a lot of early childhood support, which helped them develop language and social skills. They still have some problems with language, however, especially when experiencing anxiety...."
<MarkPalmer> Michele: I have one simplified and one updated example.
<Michele> Suggested update from Michele #2: Blair is autistic and was diagnosed at an early age because of delays in speech development, sometimes called non-speaking autism. Receiving a lot of early childhood support helped language and social skill development, though some problems with language still exist, especially when experiencing anxiety. Blair, who also identifies as non-binary and uses “they/them” pronouns, works part-time as a data entry cle[CUT]
<Michele> Blair, who also identifies as non-binary and uses “they/them” pronouns, works part-time as a data entry clerk. Working with a computer is easy for them, although updates to the data entry application can cause problems if there are significant changes to the interface. This can cause feelings of anxiety for Blair if they don’t know the change is coming and given time to adapt. It can also be difficult for Blair if someone asks for some work t[CUT]
<MarkPalmer> Michele: There are options for keeping it, explaining it but perhaps de-emphasising it.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: I apologise if this sounds strange. Don't know why I'm struggling with the word "also".
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Love the sentence but just struggling with word also - they're too separate.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Again, an awkward question but if we rewrite to remove they/them, why put in gender identification at all?
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Writing out the need to flag up that they are non-binary.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Michele was suggesting that it was good from the point of view of inclusion.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: We've had previous comments where it's been suggested that all of our personas were gender neutral. Probably a step too far because that's not how people interact.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: How's that for equivocation.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: We're here to educate on accessibility, not inclusion. Fine as long as it doesn't get in the way of our primary purpose.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: I can take Michele's suggestion and rework those in and make available for consideration.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: And drop the "also".
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: If it's currently Blair then it's potentially first persona is that a good thing? Find a name that's alphabetically lower on our list?
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Will play around based on discussion after initial survey and possibly do a follow up survey. Same with Alex.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Had good feedback also on Tools and Techniques and Diverse Abilities so that will integrate into the resource.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Will keep survey open until 4th with hope of having something ready for end of January.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Next look at this would be high level approval to publish.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Building on the shoulders of giants for a lot of this.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Unless anyone has anything specific, happy to proceed with these.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Get on and address various issues flagged.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Wanted to acknowledge great job done by Kevin.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Progression on this. Task force been meeting.
<dmontalvo> https://deploy-preview-433--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/designer-modules/
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Live draft of designer modules.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Updated daily based on comments.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: As Brent was saying, still a couple of things to figure out. Lots of comments on editorials.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Two things. Firstly adding some warnings to content flashing and flickering. Make it clear to instructors that this is dangerous content and that students understand the risk.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Secondly, use of the word "define". Was flagged as being ambiguous.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Needs to be clarified and will discuss with task force in January.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: After thorough review there will be a page listing changes.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Also Diff which may or may not be more helpful for people.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Thank you all for your feedback and helping us develop this resource.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Task force had great discussion on flashing for warnings. Not good enough to just warn instructor. Push it to say "Give warning to the people you are teaching".
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Really good discussion. Thanks Daniel for pulling it out.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: One other issue identified by task force. Wording asking whether student was comfortable felt like it was asking them to disclose their disability.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Give a way for instructor to proceed but not put student into situation where they have to give anything away.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Any questions?
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Daniel - next step is butterfly approval?
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Is that where we are at?
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: I would say so.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: We will have these discussion in January then bring back for Butterfly approval. Authoring curricula is next.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Thanks to Daniel and task force for all the work on this.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Any other comments or questions?
<MarkPalmer> When a course provider enters their offering of a course they need to document what accessibility support is available.
<MarkPalmer> The above comment relates to List of Accessibility Courses
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: Thanks Brent. For the last two weeks been conducting user studies with course providers.
<brent> Submit a Course Draft Page: https://deploy-preview-4--wai-course-list.netlify.app/course-list/submit-a-resource
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: Was good to have external feedback and opinions.
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: Made a few general adjustments but need more work on accessibiltiy support list.
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: An extensive list was well received.
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: Trying to be more consistent with the resources but didn't work well in our context. Now broken down into digital accessibility and non-digital accessibility. Do you think this list is comprehensive enough?
<brent> Accessibility Support Issue #29: https://github.com/w3c/wai-course-list/issues/29
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Give everyone a chance to look at example. See how accessibility support section is broken out into 3 areas.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Any feedback for Leticia now would be helpful. Take a moment to read.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Easy-to-read Font Face needs clarification
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: Text and visuals size and font-face are subjective.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Has W3C ever had advice/documentation on fonts?
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Is there any published advice?
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: Nothing specific from what I have seen.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Seems like every resource I've seen also has people who are defending and also other people attacking it for various reason.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: So many different opinions on it.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: WebAIM has good piece of readability as does British Dyslexic Foundation.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Fairly sure WCAG doesn't mention font choice. What do we mean when we say that?
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Don't know how you ever could come up with a definitive accessible font.
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: User that reminded of subjectivity of this was from WebAIM.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Lot of research happening now. Font survey on linkedin and twitter. Findings were to be presented.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Think this was Gareth Ford-Williams
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Not like everyone has their own style sheet.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: So is the recommendation just to remove the easy to read font element?
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: If there was a way to replace it with something less subjective then that would be good.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: We are pointing people towards how to write accessible presentation. We do point to it in the broader material.
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: Is resolution to drop it?
RESOLUTION: Remove "Easy to Read Font Face" from digital accessibility and non-digital accessibility.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: There is guidance on "text and visuals big enough to read"
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Is there guidance around this in WCAG?
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Kind of.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: We could reword that one by adding "for the context of use". Try to think about how people are using this material.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Also is present in the non-digital.
<MarkPalmer> Michele: Does this also make sense for digital accessibility? What does big enough to read in the digital context?
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: We don't specify what big enough means. No recommendation.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: For course this would mean logging into course and look at it on screen and zoom up to 200% without losing functionality.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Make sure that your system allows browser or AT zoom.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: And still have all functionality working.
<MarkPalmer> Leticia: If this is already included in WCAG then I guess it falls under that.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Possibly amend to "resize to 200% without loss of functionality". Use language already in WCAG,
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Did like how it's spread out and organised into sections. Anyone think anything is missing?
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Anything else you want to cover off?
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Thanks Leticia for great work.
<brent> current Charter: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/charter2020
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Wanted to wrap up this year and look forward to next year. What have we accomplished, what have we yet to do?
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Want to point out a few key things.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Again we are going until June 30th 2023. Beginning of 2023 we will rework charter.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: At that time will try to create wiki page showing accomplishments.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: See Section 3 Deliverables
<MarkPalmer> Brent: First up is Curricula which Daniel has been charging ahead with.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Looking at "Develop Curriculum for Designers, Content Authors, Managers and Testers". Well on our way with that.
<MarkPalmer> Daniel: Testers not in scope but may be part of other projects.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Daniels timeline ends sooner than charter so will be marked off our list.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Accessibilities Roles and Responsibilities. Denis and Team working on that. Publishing mapping for responsibilities. Eventually this will be a matrix.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Currently working on tasks of each success criteria. Awaiting developer to populate this into the WAI site.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: If anyone knows a developer who would be interested in this piece then reach out to the chairs.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Mapping moving along. Easy checks - updating existing content.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Mention ARRM matrix. Really stuck. Could really use some project management.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: If anyone can think of projct managers or developers who can step in then please make chairs aware.
<MarkPalmer> Easy checks would be good option for 2022.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Would be great to have 30 second videos to inform people of how to use available free tools.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: That could be on the roadmap for 2022,
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Web Accessibility Laws and Policies - 25 new entries to be added to that database.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Before and after demo: Been on shelf for a while. W3C was going to get resources to work on this.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: This gets brought up now and then but no resources to pursue at the moment.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Question I have is will these always be out of date.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Any way we can future proof these a bit more?
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: W3C is a non-profit org. Funding is always a challenge.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: This is an ever changing field where guidelines are refreshed more often so we do seem to lag.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Policies page has disclaimer saying things might be out of date.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Trying to think of a way to restructure. How do we make "Before and After" more updated.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: While it looks updated, principles are still solid.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Maybe not as big a problem as we think it is. Possibly more of a perception issue.
<MarkPalmer> Kevin: Designs get tired.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Good thoughts and things for us to be considering.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Trying to give updated look to materials. ATAG Report tool. Hidde was working on this and wrapped up before he left?
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Yes he did.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: EM Reporting tool - Carlos wrapping up.
<MarkPalmer> Video resources - Shadi was PM working with task force creating scripts and visuals as well as production company.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: When he left this was relooked at. Let's develop resources which will support HPWDUTW.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Shadi still interested in leading this effort. Not dead in the water. Can be worked on in next year.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Other various resource - HPWDUTW, Accessible online learning, list of training courses
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Publishing info around the work we are doing.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: On track to knock out these deliverables.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: Always good at end of year to consider where we are in relation to the charter.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: As a new chair I'd ask if people are invested in resources then invite them to EO.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Great cheerleading session Kris Anne.
<MarkPalmer> Again, list of accessibility courses open issues.
<MarkPalmer> HPWDUTW extended until 4th January
<MarkPalmer> Brent: No other surveys open. Next meeting 7th January.
<MarkPalmer> Brent: We all just want to thank you for the work this year and times and talents that you've given to these resources.
<MarkPalmer> Sharron: Happy Christmas Happy Holidays.
<MarkPalmer> Kris Anne: Find a little bit of joy in every day. Have a great holiday.
trackbot, end meeting
<shawn> scribenick: MarkPalmer
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Williams]/Williams/ Succeeded: s/video/videos/ Default Present: MarkPalmer, Daniel, Sharron, Leticia, krisannekinney, Michele, Laura, Howard, Sylvie Present: MarkPalmer, Daniel, Sharron, Leticia, krisannekinney, Michele, Laura, Howard, Sylvie WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Andrew Arch, Jennifer Chadwick, Jade Matos Carew, Shawn Henry) Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ Estella Oncins Regrets: Estella Oncins Found Scribe: Mark Palmer Found ScribeNick: MarkPalmer Found Scribe: Sharron Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron WARNING: No scribe lines found matching previous ScribeNick pattern: <MarkPalmer> ... Found Scribe: Mark Found Scribe: Sharron Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron Found Scribe: Mark Found ScribeNick: MarkPalmer WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <MarkPalmer> ... Scribes: Mark Palmer, Sharron, Mark ScribeNicks: MarkPalmer, Sharron Found Date: 17 Dec 2021 People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]