trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 10 December 2021
<scribe> Scribe: Michele Williams
<scribe> ScribeNick: Michele
<scribe> Chair: Brent Bakken, Kris Anne Kinney, Shawn Lawton Henry
<shawn> Chair: Brent Bakken
<shawn> scribe+ krisanne
Shawn trying to use new commands such as "scribe+" to add a secondary scribe, but Daniel says we may not be using the correct version of our minutes
Brent: A lot of work by Kevin, Mark, and Jane (Knowbility) to update user stories plus edits to other parts of the resource
This is not a thorough review phase and survey open but wanted to discuss here to prepare for that survey feedback
Pieces we also want to bring to light - example, "Blair" is new...
Kevin will give an update on "Blair" versus other parts...
Also open the floor for general questions and the resource...
Chance also for editors to make comments or suggestions this morning that they may want to tease out before the survey opens this weekend and closes next Wednesday(?).
Kevin: Starting with "Blair", we wanted to highlight Autism Spectrum Disorder and wanted to highlight barriers that weren't highlighted elsewhere...
<brent> Blair User Story draft: https://deploy-preview-113--wai-people-use-web.netlify.app/people-use-web/user-stories-two/
Want a persona that will encompass those barriers and tie in with COGA work...
Want to build in what COGA had done and Autism was not represented so want to have that...
The other stories are re-writes, not major changes; but "Blair" is completely new...
Built the "Blair" persona based on prior knowledge and prior patterns from other personas...
Kevin also admittedly built from personal experience with Autistic folks but it's only 1 perspective...
happy to have the personas "torn apart" to add in more perspectives and information...
Goal: Take it apart and put back together if there are issues, major oversights, etc....
Initial questions about "Blair"?
(None from group)
Kevin: Review survey is asking for thorough review, particularly of "Blair"...
already have 1 issue that's been shared with Kevin's research community regarding Tools and Techniques...
Want detailed wordsmithing and make sure not missing anything...
Most are straightforward though there's a challenge with the teen who is deafblind...
didn't have as much experience with deafblind people needed to fill that out...
it's surface and doesn't have as much depth as wanted so if you have experience please add it...
Have also changed the names so that it's more diverse such as culture and ages, but if missed something please mention it.
Not many edits on "Diverse abilities and barriers" and "Tools and Techniques"...
Those didn't need much on content changes so mostly presented them on multiple pages to help with linking within the broader resources (previously it linked to show/hide sections which weren't informative)....
Additionally, the Tools and Techniques previously had 4 section titles (e.g., "Perception" with other descriptors)...
Wanted to streamline this to "Perception" as just one word with a dash with a descriptor
So look at the section titles as well as the content to see if that is working - that's a main change on Tools and Techniques...
Any questions?
Shawn: Are the title changes outlined in the survey (as well as other minor changes)?
Kevin: We haven't changed anything except titles.
Shawn: Can you call that out? People have to prioritize what they read for the survey so want to make sure we're focusing on the things that have changed,.
Kevin: We can look into modifying the survey to say, "This is the part that changed".
Shawn: On existing surveys, you can change the wording though be careful to not alter any existing results (especially if deleting a question, that can get wonky).
Kevin will follow-up with Shawn and Kris Anne to see how to alter the survey to make changes clear in the question wording,
Brent: Going back to "Blair", it talks about the story of Blair with quote and stories, then AT, and barriers. But at the end there's a stray bulleted list that's not in other user stories...
Is that supposed to be there?
Kevin: Those are barriers we were going to expand but didn't do will remove,
Brent: Other question - in Tools and Techniques page, when talk about "Perception", "Input", etc., those are all on one page but seems they will go to new pages...
When go into "Perception" there's no side nav; will these pages have side nav in the future?
Kevin: Yes. We can't get side nav just yet in this environment.
Brent: Okay, so there's a Summary and then Section Contents - wondering about consistency of "Section Contents" because that's typically be on the same page rather than new pages...
So wondering if this follows the same patterns.
Kevin: I may have introduced a new design pattern admittedly. Can change it though to be more consistent with Stories of Web Users...
<kevin> https://deploy-preview-113--wai-people-use-web.netlify.app/people-use-web/abilities-barriers/
To recap: on the above Diverse Abilities and Barriers page, there's "Section Contents" under "Summary" that are links to new pages...
On the Stories of Web Users, this is "Page Contents" and they are on-page links...
So there's a potential inconsistency with how those pages are set up and how and the links work.
Kris Anne: Not advocating either way but it makes sense what you've done.
Kevin: I can also add some more explanatory text like "This resource addresses the following:"
Kris Anne: Question - Is it acceptable to share a part of this resource outside of W3C?
Kris Anne: I know someone who knows more about deafblind kids through a camp she runs but is it okay to share with her?
Kevin: I welcome any feedback.
Consensus from group is positive with this strategy.
<shawn> yes, everybody is welcome to share this draft with anyone now -- draft is publicly available
As mentioned, it's okay to share the link to the draft that is publicly available.
Kris Anne will try to reach out to her colleague.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about Blair
Shawn: Surprised to see Blair's pronouns.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personas_and_use_cases
Kevin: Thought they were all deleted but what was the surprise?
Shawn: EO talked about this and noted the confusion caused by pronouns...
Put a link in IRC for folks to read through...
EO has very productive, thoughtful discussion before that lead to what's in the linked style guide.
Mark: Think there was discussion of Blair being she/her and making sure the name matched the intended pronouns.
Kevin: I'd like to say I was aware - I was and now recall it. But in defense I've followed the guidance because it's okay to use various pronouns and it's okay to put "they" as well as the name...
Was conscious of gender in this one and discussed "Blair" as being both male and female (though in UK more male)...
Deliberately chose ambiguity and then leaving out personal pronouns.
Shawn: It jumped out at me - seemed like a dozen.
Kevin: Open to changing this.
Was aiming for diversity.
Brent: Understand use of name. Hard to keep using "Blair" - like twice in more sentence - than using "they". E.g., "Blair received X and they had an outcome of Y."
Laura: Have experience with co-worker with "they/them" pronouns. Also part of original conversation. It didn't stand out to me and felt like the right balance...
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on name gender issues. also on austic.
You get used to the writing style of it, and "Blair" in the U.S. is often more female than male so it balances.
Shawn: Had discussion about first names. I have a name that is often associated with a male person, for instance. So no need to add a complication with a name that has a strong gender attachment.
Kevin: We have some personas that will have that problem, like "Alex". But "Blair" was meant to be neutral.
Shawn: for the personas that are using a gender pronoun, let's make sure the first name is commonly used with that pronoun throughout the world...
There's a few we may want to revisit like Alex and Lee.
Kris Anne: maybe we need a "Jennifer".
Shawn: If we use plural pronouns, we may want to update the style guide to say "explain it"...
Also may not want to do it with the persona that is also Autistic because it may add complexity with folks who aren't fully comfortable with reading plural pronouns...
Might introduce an issue with reading comprehension.
Kevin: Almost suggests don't do it because it's part of the full picture of the persona.
Daniel: Recall the discussion and would advocate for staying with he and she pronouns to help with reading/grammar comprehension.
Mark: Being Scottish, used to Blair being male. If we don't use "they/them" pronouns, what's the impact? I see where Kevin was going with inclusion.
Shawn: There's pro's and con's. It's a challenge no matter what for sure.
Brent: If no other persona uses plural pronouns then we should do it for Blair for inclusion...
(agrees with Mark)...
Also, it's okay to use the name rather than "they" for a sentence to help with comprehension - just be careful not to use name over and over in the same sentence...
May just need a tweak of the writing to avoid that.
Shawn: Don't want to reopen the style guide so hope that's known intuitively.
Brent: Should be obvious if you start to replace "they" with "Blair" you'll see it's repeated so that should be something you want to change naturally.
Kevin: Conscious that I didn't want to start each sentence with the name so I think it'll be natural to keep a good flow.
Jade: I didn't notice the gender in "Blair"...
<Jade> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#persona
<Jade> Tal is 6.9.3
Also, in the COGA personas, it's obvious they're not as diverse or they're trying to avoid gender in one of them...
so "Blair" felt natural actually.
Laura: I've shifted perspectives in the past, but thinking it's important and better to put have one that has plural pronouns.
<krisannekinney> +1 to Laura
Kris Anne: It reads fine now and hope with feedback it will continue to read this well and agree with having a gender-neutral persona if we're talking about inclusion...
<shawn> 0 to having a plural pronoun. do think current one needs some tweaking.
agree with Laura and Jade, it didn't even come to mind...
just make sure it doesn't get too much of "Blair".
<Vicki> 0 to having a plural pronoun.
Question to the group: Are we okay with Blair's current pronoun presentation?
<MarkPalmer> +1 to having a plural pronoun
Daniel: Still have a concern.
Kevin: can you clarify?
Daniel: I see the point, but having it with the cognitive impairment seems to compound issues (?).
Vicki: Seeing the plural pronoun reads as a mistake and I lose my train of thought...
It's a bit difficult, I'm not used to reading pronouns as such, it made me stumble.
Kevin: What about if we flagged the gender pronouns early in the story and explained it?
Vicki: We're overthinking it maybe. You can try to explain it but when English is not the Mother Tongue then it still may be hard possibly. But you can try.
Jade: Everyone has to start somewhere so it may be this resource...
Also looking at how other org's are handling this internationally to see if they flag it or just put it in without explanation. May be worth exploring others' strategies.
Mark: Introductory paragraph doesn't seem like the right strategy because it calls out the pronoun too much (like exaggerating the difference of the person)...
that may bring more criticism...
<Vicki> +1 Mark
it's an issue with the English language, not the gender, so we don't want to call someone out as "different" due to that, it's a backwards step.
Brent: 100% agree with Mark...
<krisannekinney> +1 to Mark
and going back to Vicki, I understand. As a native English reader I can read it but understand others may struggle so that's valid. But also don't know how to fix that...
Do we alter how we write it to accommodate English as secondary language? But we'll likely get more hits for not doing it than doing it.
Laura: Adding to Brent - initially we all stumble with change. Having had the experience, I've had to learn and now things feel more natural...
Get the language can be difficult but we should do it nonetheless.
Laura: People are going to struggle a bit just because it's not what we're used to.
Kevin: Question to those who know other languages besides English, how will this translate/work if we keep it?
Daniel: In the case of Spanish, when use "Them" as direct object but "They" is not a subject and will not translate well.
Carlos: We'll have same
difficulties with Portuguese (?). If I had to translate, I
would likely remove the pronouns and address them by
name.
... (It is Portuguese.) Not aware if we have pronoun
designations for non-binary pronouns.
Carlos: Also, when I was reading in English it read like a mistake to see "they" but I recovered to understand it was a non-gender pronoun.
Kevin: So similar to Vicki, it tripped you up initially but you recovered.
Vicki: In French we'll have the same translation problem with the pronouns.
Kevin: For internationalization, the recognition of non-binary pronouns will be at different stages.
Mark: I'm an advocate for including it for inclusion but not at the expense of comprehension,
Kevin: Maybe we do try to just use the proper name but that may be a challenge.
Jade: Using just the proper name will sound like the "Tao" persona from COGA so let's try to avoid that.
Carlos: We don't have "it" or non-gender pronoun in Portuguese. Things are always male/female - even objects.
Kevin: So where or how is non-binary debate currently in other countries given your language is binary?
Carlos: Not aware in Portugal. Seen people writing with out last letter in their nouns - creating new words to better express themselves in non-binary.
Jade: Posted link to article about how young people in Argentina is doing this such as putting an "X".
Daniel: In Spain, there's a will to use "es" versus "as/us" to help with gender neutral.
Leticia: Brazilian who speaks Portuguese - initially thought the gender pronoun in Blair was trying to generalize about Autistic people rather than just this persona...
corrected that thinking though.
Leticia: Also, starting to use "x" in their language as well about it's hard to read - don't know how to read words with these "x's".
Kevin: In summary, there seems to be consensus to have a persona with non-binary pronouns, but concern about how to do this internationally where English is not the primary language...
So, recognizing we need to write for international audience, and for languages that are not easily able to represent non-binary personas, do we not do it because of this or push it forward?
Brent: If we decide to put ourselves at the forefront, know we're going to be dinged but just know that's part of being at the front. You're going to get opinions so need to know going in that we'll get that.
Kris Anne: Question - in signatures, Zoom, LinkedIn people are putting pronouns, so can we just put pronouns on all personas like that? For instance, Blair is very female to me because of Facts of Life but it's opposite for others...
so can we just put pronouns in the heading like others are doing?
Kris Anne: Agree we don't want to call out a difference and explaining just for one person/persona, so if it's on all of them it's equal and people can investigate it for themselves if they're unfamiliar.
<brent> +1 to Kris Anne about putting the pronoun with the name.
<shawn> [ Shawn had to leave the call for personal matters and not coming back. ]
Jade: One reason people add them to signatures, etc. is to be allies. Also, definitely don't want to call out a difference which may move the focus to gender rather than disability...
May be useful to have this conversation with someone non-binary and/or do more research.
Mark: Having them in the title doesn't make the other parts any easier to read. Also, reason to know pronouns is to address them properly in conversation but these personas aren't conversations...
but we should be at the forefront. We can pick and choose where to focus our inclusion; can't be inclusive of disability but not gender...
Overall, we'll have to address it soon enough so why not start now?
Kevin: We have this discussion in the minutes and have learned about non-binary language in other languages so that's been fascinating...
can we capture this is in GitHub, continue discussion, and get opinions from others (particularly who are non-binary)?
Brent: We'll get more from the survey as well so I think we go forward with the survey and possibly bring in more opinions from others who can speak to this...
also need to consider internationalization of this - how do people react to this who don't speak English as their primary language, and how to people react to this as part of an Autistic persona.
Brent: Also, what about Scottish?
Kevin: (Jokingly) It's not gender specific - just "hey you", etc.
Brent: In summary, great discussion and we're on the verge of publishing this resource so please do a thorough review and complete the summary so we can have feedback before the holidays...
Survey for "How People with Disabilities Use the Web"
Recall that you can do the survey partially and return to it (hit Submit to save it)
One more meeting this year; then December 24th and 31st no meetings; likely will meet again January 7th
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/cahir: Brent// Succeeded: s/Tehre/There/ Succeeded: s/(Group agrees)// Default Present: brent, MarkPalmer, Laura, shawn, krisannekinney, Jade, Vicki, Daniel, Michele, Leticia, CarlosD, Howard, Kevin Present: brent, MarkPalmer, Laura, shawn, krisannekinney, Jade, Vicki, Daniel, Michele, Leticia, CarlosD, Howard, Kevin Regrets: Sylvie, Jenn, Sharron, AndrewArch Found Scribe: Michele Williams Found ScribeNick: Michele Found Date: 10 Dec 2021 People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]