Meeting minutes
Judy: Agenda check.
Judy: Next meeting with Wed Dec 1.
<Judy> NEXT MEETING WEDNESDAY DEC 1
Publication plans and announcements https://www.w3.org/WAI/cc/wiki/WAI_Announcement_Drafts
Janina: APA has a lot going on.
Judy: Anything we need to know?
Janina: comments on fpwd's, natural language, accessibility user requirements, just closed on synchronization.
Janina: Will update working draft. Accessibility of remote meetings. Experience from last 2 years provided content.
Janina: In the pipeline, we think decision will be to republish 2019 note on accessibility of captcha as fpwd, bringing it up to date.
Janina: Hopefully to move to w3c statement.
Judy: Happy to hear, confirming that there are planned additions. How clearly will you indicate those in your new fpwd on route to a statement. Cover letter? In-line?
Janina: new content is not in fpwd. fpwd is existing note.
Judy: Have you considered putting in editors notes saying "need to...", or minimally have it included in a cover message?
Janina: 2 editors notes, one near beginning, one near the end. The one near the end is proposed approach.
Janina: A note near the beginning with some additional data that we didn't have at the time, an economic impact of captcha.
Judy: Thanks for that info. I want to make sure those things get signaled out to those looking at this document.
George: Is it a common practice with editors notes to link to an issue tracker where you can collect comments?
Janina: We have a status of doc which details how we collect comments, with various options.
Tzviya: No details on captcha, I've done some digging on this, can you send me link to repository and I'll put in comments there?
Janina: will find and provide.
Judy: This is one of the reasons we surface new work. Even if you drop the link in to irc, can you send it to the waicc list? Many aren't here today.
Judy: Not only to know what's coming, but EO might want to know, digital publishing, etc.
Janina: We may want to recruit interested parties.
Judy: How much is the guidelines group looking at captcha? Is the approach in 3.0 on target for evolution of accessible authentication?
Michael: No, not working on captcha (yet). I would hope our general guidelines would cover accessibility issues.
Michael: Ones specific to captcha would be included. Finish note and start sending suggestions.
Judy: Do you have a parking lot?
Michael: working on one.
Judy: Janina, are you ok throwing into parking lot?
Janina: Not too worried. No problem.
Judy: How to get queued up for getting WCAG 3.0 updated with guidance.
Janina: Still involved with both groups.
Janina: Won't get lost.
Janina: If I do have to drop from AGWG, we'll address. But for now I can ensure loop stays closed.
Judy: By impression is most of web community is that wai has a captcha doc.
Judy: I think it would be great to change that. I don't think changing to a w3c statement is enough.
Judy: Brent, would you be able to help APA to think about if there is some part of education guidance that you could help figure out what to say and where to put?
Judy: Current doc is technical doc, doesn't attract a lot of attention.
Brent: Is it how to create an accessible captcha?
Judy: No, lists challenges with captcha.
Janina: How you accessibly prove you are a human and not a robot.
Judy: I like where you are going Tzviya.
Tzviya: I use this doc all the time. What I hear from my colleagues is that security is the most important issue, and then think about accessibility later.
Tzviya: I think it will be helpful to work with security.
Tzviya: As far as publicizing, not many people pay as much attention as we would like.
Tzviya: I think that we want to think about ways to get people to review outside of wai.
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest also working with security
Judy: Spending a lot of time on this topic. Trying to understand how we get this more broadly understood. Brent, your q on practical guidance was interesting.
Judy: Janina, any way to say more on practical guidance?
Janina: Let's see security review first, and then visit.
Janina: We do have in APA someone with 10 years experience.
Janina: All the authentication work and security, we have some expertise that we will bring in. We will try to get security's attention.
Judy: Brent, would you be willing for someone to look at draft and comment towards the question of revisions that would make it more practical?
Brent: Yes.
Brent: Ready to be looked at now?
Janina: No, not yet.
Judy: It's a good time to review.
Judy: Any other changes in planned publication dates, new doc announcements?
Judy: I'm hearing changes in 2.2 publication timing. Is that taken care of in announcements?
<janina> https://
Michael: for 2.2 we aren't close enough for something to publish to announce. It's on my plate to publish 3.0 content. And digital publishing, api mappings, and more.
Michael: Trying to get done this week.
Judy: Was there something in prior announcements that needs to be taken out?
Michael: Not sure, will review.
Judy: Anything else?
Judy: Is another publication expected from epub accessibility before Dec?
Tzviya: We are moving forward with candidate release in a few weeks. I have to check on exact date.
Judy: Anything else? No. Next item.
FYI on some upcoming website changes
Judy: Just an FYI. redesign work in progress for past year with regard to techniques and understanding and act rules. Supplemental guidance. Trying to ensure we publish in Dec.
Judy: My understanding is some comes through EO on Friday.
Judy: I think you've already reviewed changes Chuck and Michael, and are reviewing coding and feasibility.
Michael: FYI mode to ensure there are no suprises.
Judy: Task forces, the supplemental part will get to coga, we aren't doing it for lvtf at this point.
Publication plans and announcements https://www.w3.org/WAI/cc/wiki/WAI_Announcement_Drafts
Input to training options for WAI groups, for working with Deaf colleagues, interpreters, also Coga?
Judy: We discussed this in previous meeting, I asked if there was interest in training. I think there was a strong "yes".
Judy: When I went back to org they were clear that all they had available was US based training.
Judy: There were possible differences in cultural aspects. I'm not optimistic that training can be changed. I thought we could proceed, that enough was generic even if US centric.
Judy: People ok with that?
Chuck: If they are doing a favor, let's not push them outside of comfort zone.
Judy: We would be paying them.
Judy: They would give us permission to re-use.
Chuck: If not in their subject matter expertise, let's not push.
Brent: If it could be problematic because it's not universal, with all cultural aspects, it could cause more issues and frustrations. Is that the issue?
Judy: My perspective is that it would be more useful than not. Particularly for individuals who aren't use to working with colleagues who are in the deaf community..
Judy: Maybe I can suggest things that they could do to bookmark in peoples minds possible differences.
Judy: Maybe some suggested framing.
Judy: Different sign language, different communities.
Judy: We've encountered that when trying to arrange events.
Judy: If I schedule in Dec, are Dec calendars packed?
Brent: Yes for EO. Last 2 weeks is out as well. No bandwidth in Dec.
Judy: I was thinking training for chairs. But we could change that.
Judy: Any comments?
Brent: January preference.
Judy: Here's complimentary: I mentioned last time that there were several TPAC sessions by COGA covering how to work with COGA. I thought that could become its own training.
Judy: Are people interested in that? Apart from group to group discussion? Any thoughts or reactions?
Chuck: Time permitting I would participate/attend!
Judy: Short piece instead of full session.
Brent: You made it clear, but want to ensure, is this information about how to work with COGA task force? Or is this about how to work with people with cognitive issues?
Judy: It would be more the former, but the later might be more useful and relevant.
Judy: They are different things.
Michael: There's overlap, but meant for former.
Tzviya: In terms of working with, we did have a small meeting with positive workforce environment. Agenda could have been clearer. A lot of what was discussed is already baked in.
Tzviya: We did talk about how some training in progress could incorporate the perspective of neurodiversity. I think there is the need for awareness.
Tzviya: correct terminology, all of us work with many people of all abilities. I think training would be very welcome if it's short.
Judy: As long as it's short?
Tzviya: I was in a session where Rain did 5-10 minute overview. That's perfect. Don't know how we get the word out is a challenge.
Tzviya: Do we tell everyone about expectations?
Tzviya: We all need to know more about how to talk nice and be respectful.
Judy: An agenda item for next positive work env meeting in 3 weeks.
Judy: Will talk with Rain shortly.
Judy: Recurring issues with accessibility, privacy and security. I keep hearing same lack of understanding, the way to address accessibility and privacy.
Judy: I keep hearing about scraping usage of AT.
Judy: I don't think we are succeeding in messaging, that you can't violate rights to privacy.
Judy: I wanted to check to see if this is a recurring concern. And how can we better address?
Judy: Do you think it's an APA, Brent for EO? Do people keep seeing the same issue?
Michael: It's an issue that impacts a number of things. The topic of "people shouldn't break privacy" won't work by itself. We don't know if it is possible to have accessibility enhancements w/o privacy compromises.
Michael: we need to discuss if it's possible and desirable. That's where focus needs to be.
Judy: To come up with a better understanding of the line, and build in technical solutions?
Michael: Yes, and there will be varied opinions.
Judy: Where would it be located? Which docs?
Michael: ARIA, maybe WCAG.
Janina: APA.
Michael: As we develop more solutions, this issue comes up.
Janina: We need to consider what is technically feasible. And what we need regulatory environments to provide.
Tzviya: I think, my theory is that privacy is getting more attention now than ever before. I think privacy is a hot topic.
Tzviya: This isn't new about accessibility intersects with other groups to review.
Tzviya: Daisy wrote that Ruby needs to support. I would like to discuss and figure out how best to escalate. Horizontal reviews happened alone before.
Tzviya: We can't do these in isolation.
Tzviya: Maybe this is a larger suggestion about how horizontal review happens. We can't do in isolation, that's not how real world works.
Tzviya: Maybe Judy and I can discuss offline.
Janina: We will run into issues on this. an article is talking about authoritarian countries are ganging up. Some countries want this access.
Janina: Don't know where we draw lines.
Janina: Head person for captcha provided feedback. We have a long list of data captcha collects.
Judy: Expanding discussion. Kim, curious for people who have to rely on voice recognition for any writing done.
Judy: Speech samples are collected. We haven't touched on in our discussions.
Judy: Is there an opportunity for wai to be trying to comment on the privacy vulnerabilities? Do you have suggestions? Or pointers where it's already being addressed?
Kim: Not being addressed.
Kim: There are places where things have to be reviewed together. Mixed input users getting caught by one thing or another.
Kim: Nobody pays attention to privacy and speech. On one platform you could have speech be local, but that capability went away. With new systems there are parts that can be excluded and parts that cannot.
<tzviya> https://
I will need to leave 5 minutes before top of hour.
Kim: Collecting data to make something better is valid, but it's also sometimes an excuse.
Judy: Thanks for perspective. I do use speech part of the time.
Kim: Some VR AT can be private.
Kim: Everything on web is not private.
Judy: Do you Chuck now if privacy and accessibility has been captured as needing work in 3.0?
Chuck: No. Send mail to chairs.
I have 3 minutes.
Judy: Janina, where do you think this could be worked out? RTQF?
Janina: I don't think we'll come to a consensus, but we can ask for review.
Tzviya: Wondering if anybody in wai who is active in privacy.
Judy: Having it further developed might be more valuable.
Judy: Anything else?
Judy: this is something that could benefit from additional follow-up.
Janina: Yes.
Judy: Should we come back later to accessibility and security?
Janina: Yes, tangled more with captcha.
Janina: Trust brokering. Anonimizing data has not been explopored.
bye
Judy: How do we want to bring this back? Who wants to help?
Kim: I'm up for a discussion
Judy: MAybe we need more brainstorming
Tzviya: Happy to discuss