Meeting minutes
janina: welcome everyone!
janina: welcome, this is a joint meeting between APA, AG, Silver, and EPUB3
… WCAG will be W3C accessibility guidelines
… today we are looking at metadata
… metadata might be helpful in how we implement and specify
… epub has used metadata for twenty years
… and now uses schema.org to describe aspects of our publications
… and APA etc might want to use metadata
… there's an APA/EPUB meeting later this week
… on thursday, same hour
… AG/Silver folks are welcome
… we're looking at the three specs
… EPUB has asked for horizontal review
… let's benefit from all our joint expertise
… and there's a personalization spec moving forward
… enough of my intro :)
… could someone give us an overview of metadata in epub
… how it's being used, how it's benefitted publications
… that will precipitate questions
avneeshsingh: starting wtih a11y metadata
… it was DAISY implementing 20 years ago
… EPUB started in 2014/2015 in A11y spec 1.0
… Matt, George, please jump in
… in 2015 we explored how to expand discoverability metadata
… people need to know before buying if the book has a11y features
… IMS Global, DAISY, Benetech, etc. we were working on extending schema.org metadata around a11y
… we expanded schema.org a11y metadata
… we just added the values to our spec
… (this was under IDPF)
… it was normatively referenceing schema.org metadata
… note that schema is not the only metadata scheme used
… ONIX is widely used
… but was behind, but we filled the gap in ONIX
… but now this work is in w3c
… EPUB a11y spec went into ISO in 2018
… then the issue was raised, how can it point to schema.org a11y metadata normatively
… so in ISO version we did not reference schema normatively, we moved to the techniques doc which was not normative
… there was a long discussion in EPUB group, the consensus was that schema.org metadata has governance and process, then EPUB a11y can normatively reference
George: the terms came from access for all, an IMS Global standard. Greg and Madeline worked on it, it was approved years ago
… we used their terms
… where we wanted new info, we created our own
… there weren
… 't too many
… IMS is not actively working on or modifying that spec
janina: the underlying question I raised with PLH
… looking at Process 2021
… lots of significant changes
… how do we normatively reference metadata not at w3.org
… the answer from PLH is that we'll look at it on a case-by-case basis
… the maintenance would be a question
… how broadly implemented?
<plh>
mgarrish: that mirrors what we discovered
… we can't control schema.org, we can't prove it's stable
… we work on the vocabs, but we don't control the properties
<JF> +1 to Matt
mgarrish: putting metadata into schema doesn't do anything on it's own. The browsers need to support.
… bookstores need to make a11y metadata available
… there's lots of info, but it needs to be available to the end user
… we need to identify what to express, but the harder part is the implementation
CharlesL: bookstores are starting to display this a11y metadata from within the epub
… vitalsource was the first
… redshelf is starting
… re: schema.org, I was working with them, we got some properties for a11y hazard, feature, access modes, etc.
… those are stable now
… it's in their spec
… the values that go with the properties, "we don't control those
… "
… "see what sticks, and as people use it it becomes more usable"
… but we wanted a preset list
… we started a wiki with benetech
… we needed a more formal process
… that's why we're bringing it into w3c space, with a more formal process with voting
<JF> +1 to Charles
CharlesL: w3c has the idea of registry
… and we would do that work in a CG
… under the schema CG
plh: I linked to the guidance
… you can always argue precedence
… the hardest time is the first time
… we can look at how updates to schema are done
George: NNELS has also implemented this metadata
… they ingest the EPUB and read the metadata
… but in other cases the system might not have access to the EPUB itself, so they'd need the metadata in ONIX
… we also wrote a doc on how to translate the metadata into a user-friendly format
Bill_Kasdorf: Benetech's global certified accessible includes the use of this metadata
CharlesL: it's required by the EPUB 1.0 a11y spec,
… and needs to support screenreaders
rickj: on what george said...
… it
… it's not just that ONIX is needed if you don't have the physical file, it's needed for everything
<jeanne> can we get a link to the Benetech video to W3C?
rickj: and we need that info for backlist
… and we also need to reconcile differences between metadata embedded in EPUB vs ONIX
janina: my concern... we may expose the need to extend what kind of metadata we are captureing
… as we bring in more people with disabilities
… cognitive and learning disabilities
… lots of interest in videos etc
… html5 captures the ability to have alternative versions
… we need to look at extensibility
<wendyreid> mgarrish:
janina: and what about ONIX?
mgarrish: re: precedence
… in the pub manifest spec we normatively reference schema.org
… the only concern I have with schema is that it's IMS's metadata
… working in the CG to define it there is probably ideal
… there's some politics there :)
avneeshsingh: we did consider registries seriously
… the organizations who developed this are not members of w3c
… a CG is more acceptable
<Lionel_Wolberger_> present?
avneeshsingh: and there's also ONIX, MARC21, which are governed by external organizations
… those can't be moved to w3c registries
… we will have to be able to deal with outside metadata
jcraig: can you clarify your comment about Bliss
janina: there are multiple symbol sets, which are not mutually comprehendable
<dauwhe> s/???/Bliss
janina: some symbol sets are capable of greater nuance
… but there's a numeric value, which allows some sort of translation between symbol sets
<JF> https://
janina: so the user could use the vocab they understand
… but we need implementations
… we need a proof of concept with the data-dash prefix
… then ask whatwg for a reserved prefix in html5
jcraig: you menteioned that you implemented bliss in some apa doc
… and you mentioned a11y metadata indicating an EPUB supports bliss or other symbolic character set
janina: it's an emerging spec from personalization task force
JF: in personalization work
… we're creating new attributes
… allow for transformation or insertion of symbols into text
… lots of symbol sets
… bliss is a large one
<JF> https://
JF: it's open source
<CharlesL> Here is our specification which discusses Symbols.https://
JF: we have permission from the owners...
… all their symbols have numeric indentifers
… so we could use that number
… they might have a home symbol
… other symbol sets have the same idea, we can use the numeric identifier to map between sets
<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to ask what next steps could be?
<Jennie> * Very helpful explanation JF, thank you!
jeanne: I'm from WCAG 3
… this is great info
… what should our next steps be
<janina> APA demo videos: https://
jeanne: if we want to start building additional ... extending the metadata that we currently have
… do we need a CG? Spin up something new?
mgarrish: in terms of existing a11y metadata and schema
… we're working with dan to set up a maintenance group inside the schema CG
… we want a place to republish in w3c space
… if you want to add metadata, you'd do in your own group and then approach schema
avneeshsingh: I had the same question. Have you worked on the metadata already under patent policy?
… if not you can work in CG
… if done in w3c you can consider a registry
JF: Janina touched on registries
… I'm part of all these groups
… going forward we want to include more metadata in wcag 3 activity
… I don't think we know all the metadata yet
… is schema the place to go for that?
… or should it be moved closer to the mothership
… to augment or echo schema
… that's where I have questions
… how can we extend existing metadata, and if so where
<janina> Shadi, Don't know about APA video page. Has been stable for sometime.
CharlesL: to answer John's question
… orginally we wanted to bring this metadata into the work at w3c
… but didn't want to have all of the formal requirements around membership
… since we were already working in scchema, and there was already a CG
… that would be a good place to work
… get vocabs formalized in CG space
… and then move into W3C WG
… into a REC, note, registry, etc
… the CG would be the steppingstone
<Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Charles
CharlesL: we could tell schema CG that we need something new for WCAG
JF: that's where my head's been at
… the formality thaat I think we are looking for is around the vocabulary
… for example purpose of inputs, with a token list from html5
… but html5 is living standard, and in whatwg
… what happens if html5 changes those values, what happens to wcag 2.1?
… so we echoed the values in two places
… which is brittle
… but we don't want microformats where anyone can change the terms
… we need a registry with a formal process for getting terms in
janina: what i'm hearing
… suggesting the schema CG
… as the place to sandbox
… for all the APA specs
… personalization, pronunciation...
… lots of media-related things we'll need
… I hear we don't want a wiki, as it is not reliable enough
… i hear comfort about working in the CG and then move to a w3c registry
mgarrish: yeah, that's the desire
… be able to have a referencable registry
… it's just problematic here
… we developed the properties separately from the cg
… you can develop the properties wherever you want, but then you need to submit to schema
… and you can define the vocabs wherever you want
… even organizational docs have been linked to for vocabs
… you can continue to develop stuff in APA, there's just liasing with schema
George: the various metadata standards out there--ONIX for books, JATS, MARC21—making sure that we hae a solid crosswalk mapping betewen these
… because the metadata gets translated
… if we don't work on the mapping we'll get the tower of babel
<Jemma> +1 to George
avneeshsingh: re: janina's use of comfort, we are not yet in the comfort zone
… we're still working with Dan on governance
… we are moving ahead first
… we hope it will be smooth
… but we are not yet comfortable :)
… we are going through this route because of the external partnership
… but schema doesn't need values to go through schema.org process
… there are many paths open
PeterKorn: Peter Korn from Amazon
… given that this is a joint conversation
… and for us to look at metadata that epub has already defined
… how large is the dataset? How much has been used by users and by publishers?
CharlesL: the vocab... there are a couple of dozen values
<mgarrish> https://
CharlesL: there are three hazards
… there's not a lot of vocab there
<mgarrish> vocabularies: https://
CharlesL: there are already a dozen large publishers like Macmillan, Wiley that are using this metadata
… and bookstores are starting to expose to customers for every epub
… and they may note "this book doesn't have a11y metadata"
… I'd like to see amazon exposing this metadata
wendyreid: we have only a few minutes left
janina: we've understood where each other is a little better
<jenniferS> I forgot to do that when I joined.
shadi: side topic: i'm interested in how this works in the book arena
… vs in other space
<CharlesL> Here is the current Wiki of accessibility metadata and the current values. https://
shadi: eons ago, there were attempts with ERL and Powder to mark up content
… identifying the specific areas of content for things like SPAs.
… the lack of persistency of content on the web, which is different than books
<shadi> https://
<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask peter if the WebSchema list looks like it might be what he was looking for ?
bruce_bailey: peter, was the web schema the answer to your questions?
… for benetech folks, have you addressed what media formats are available for students?
PeterKorn: it's understandably a lot richer than what we have been looking at
… I have lots of questions
… what does content have to do to support braille
… the most interesting new thing is the concept of hazards
<CharlesL> that would be raw Braille within the document not something that could be converted into Braille.
PeterKorn: we call it a critical error if video content is flashing
… but I'm seeing there is existing content, or a reason for flashing
<bruce_bailey> that resource is also new to me
George: kudos to amazon and kindle; they put screenreader-supported in the metadata and made it publicly available
… there might be some semantic differences
… this is really accelerated because of EU accessibility act, and it's requirements and deadlines for publishing services and products, by 2025
mgarrish: re: braille
… there are epubs formatted in braille unicode, it's not about translation
… some of the definitions need work
<bruce_bailey> fwiw a BRF file is ... interesting
janina: thanks everyone! This was a helpful meeting for all the groups. Thanks to Dave for scribing and Wendy for queue management.