Meeting minutes
<Jemma> https://
<Jemma> meeting?
user research update
<Matt_King> Isaac: over last 2 weeks have been conducting stakeholder interviews. last one is today.
<Matt_King> Rest of week will be cynthesizings findings.
<Jemma> s/user reserach update/apg redesign project user research update
<Matt_King> from 10 people total.
<Matt_King> Will be working on use cases and user flows.
<Matt_King> Next will have more thorough report.
<Matt_King> Is there a place in repo where I should publish.
<Matt_King> mk: do we have separate repo for transform scripts
<Jemma> mck: has concern about mixing redesign project with apg isseus
<Matt_King> mk: would prefer separate repo
<Matt_King> jg: agree
<Matt_King> Isaac: will talk to seth.
<Matt_King> mk: should I ask michael to set up anothr.
<Matt_King> jg: will make easier for others who are not focused on current apg.
update on merging slider examples
<Matt_King> mk: I merged rating slider
<Matt_King> temperature slider has pending review from carolyn
<Matt_King> CM: will get to it later today
<Matt_King> jemma: seek slider just neds Matt and Jes.
<Matt_King> Jemma: still have a small android issue but good for now
switch
<Matt_King> PRs: 1891, 1892, 1893
<Matt_King> Carolyn approved
<Matt_King> mk: I haven't had time to read it yet
<Matt_King> jg: it talks about which element is used to create the switch; this deviates from other patterns.
<Matt_King> In this case, it talks about how it impacts AX.
<Jemma> can someone scribe while matt is talking?
<Matt_King> We don't necessarily enunmerate this well in other patterns.
<Matt_King> so interested in fqeedback on how we address this type of info in the pattern.
<Matt_King> CM: agree this kind of info is a good learning tool
<Matt_King> Jemma: can we have another reviewer?
<Matt_King> James: yes
<Matt_King> Jemma: pr 1892
<Jemma> https://
<Matt_King> no reviewers assigned
<Matt_King> carolyn: can add me as functional reviewer
<Matt_King> Siri: accessibility review on mobile
<Matt_King> mk: sr review for mac and windows
<Matt_King> mk: should be same people on both 1892 and 1893
<Matt_King> should be quick
<Jemma> https://
<Matt_King> jg: one of the other differences among the 3 examples is how they create the visual effects
<Matt_King> illustrates 3 different ways of creating visual effects in hcm
<Jemma> https://
<Matt_King> Should be very useful to support our HCM documentation.
update on merging slider examples
tooltip
<Matt_King> Jemma: looking at youtube and found sara's talk
<jamesn> #deathtotooltips
<Matt_King> so asked her totalk about it.
<Matt_King> Sarah: we can show a tooltip on a pattern where it works well like a text input.
<Matt_King> Or, we could also show it on a button or link where it is a problem and do our best to make it accessible.
<Matt_King> but, it won't be totally accessible.
<Matt_King> it will alwys have problems.
<Matt_King> On text field, you can show it with a range of AT and it works fine because tapping the field does not have side effects.
<Matt_King> Button has problem that you have one pointer event that will activate the button.
<Matt_King> if we show that, it kinds of gives permission.
<Matt_King> but people will do it anyway.
<Jemma> https://
JN: My opinion we shouldn't have examples that are bad examples, should not have tooltips on a button
JN: Things like a tooltip near the button
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JN: We should address the monster tooltips that are essentially a dialog, I don't linke, we need to help them
SH: Need to provide button to click
JN: We need to document that
SH: Tooltips on icon buttons, there is a case it is OK, say you have a navigation menu..
<Jemma> https://
MK: Are the ones in our tooltip example ok?
<Jemma> https://
SH: Yes, you need to read the tooltip, we could add a legend
SH: A navigation menu with icons that is partially closed...
MK: Are the tooltips... when we put tooltips with the toolbar, we did all the stuff for WCAG.
MK: I view them complementary as essential, is the main problem is with touch interfaces
SH: Other things like eye gaze and onscreen keyboard.
SH: I have not seen eye gaze with hover option
MK: The switch interface does not support hover
SH: There is mouse grid, but it is for clicking not hover
JN: There is also the voice recognition has the problem too
JK: There are hover and assistive technology issues, but where are we going with this issue
MK: We should have some kind of consensus, should we only include things that fully work
MK: We have made some things, like the toolbar
MK: I am thinking about putting in warnings, like for the slider examples
MK: We do have a plan going forward, like ARIA-AT that will provide support tables, right now that will focus on SR and not switch and eye gaze
MK: I take SH point that we give people permission to do something, is that the better approach
SH: Slider problems are AT support, tooltip it is the design of the component, it will always have problem, it will probably not improve
MK: When you think about it, a tooltip is triggered by hover, how are we soling the problem the tooltip is being used for
MK: One approach at Facebook, for touch users and screen reader users, you taap it and a hover card, make the hover card the default experience
MK: The solution is all design, nothing to do with ..., it could be on tap or hover, not just hover
MK: We might want to talk about alternative designs
BG: I had to do a buch of research on tooltips a while back, it took me a long time to to know how to do it, one size does not fit all
BG: It you have a standard tooltip, if it is in the DOM it doesn't matter
BG: When the tooltip is displayed in a delayed mannee there are timing issues with the screen reader
BG: There is like a help icon, and it doesn't appear until you click it
BG: aria-describedby doesn't work when there is a delay
BG: It will be hard to say just do that
<jamesn> +1 to toggletip
SH: Separating out tooltip from toggle tip, toggle tip, we could use this instead
Siri: A toggle tip is what we are using now, tooltips a failure for screen readers, it doesn
Siri: none of the screen reader do anythign with the tooltip role
SH: One thing is not just having example, but a decision guide, there are times when you can use a hover ...
MK: There is a help link in the toolbar
MK: There is one for navigation pattern, but I like the idea of a decision guide
MK: We do not have that in the APG yet, we are in a good place to start thinking about it again
MK: Tooltip and navigation are two areas
JK: I think this a tree to choose widget, what is out action item
MK: We have language problem in what we call things, we need something that illustrates and defines behvaiors
Siri: W have so many issues, for like different types of users and how it effects them
Siri: I agree with some examples ..., tooltip has a lot of issues, hover icon, use the title attribute
SH: The title attribute is worse that the tooltip role, it is often worse
MK: All of the WCAG exclusions that allow for bad browser behaviors, it is time to get rid of those
<Jemma> https://
MK: If HTML provides this functionality it should be an accessible experience, the issue of title attribute is a different issue, but as we expand the scope of the APG this might be one of the issues
SH: The naming description..
MK: To move forward on tooltip, if we were to have a tooltip example meeting 100% of all requirements, it would be on a input, input[type=text]
SH: I suppose a checkbox you can toggle it
SH: We can meet tooltips on button elements, have an example with the collapsable button, when the tooltip is not the sole source of the information, that they are helpful, but there is other informatino that is redundant
MK: The only solid guidance right now, only use tooltips with input type=text, and where it is redundant
MK: Give those two examples and then go beyond that like hover toggle (phase 2 of tooltip project)
MK: Does that seem reasonable
SH: Could we have toogle tip as part of the tooltip section
JN: Please!
MK: We need this strongly worded statement, we need some contrainsts
JN: We need to constrain the content in the tooltip
JN: Better to have a toggle tip ...
SH: I have done user research on tooltips and toggle tips
MK: We have some great discussion, I thnk we need to start with the pattern, is there someone who could start working on that