<Judy> agenda order is 1,2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
<scribe> scribe: Chuck
agenda, take up item 2
judy: Any upcoming complications? Steve, what's the scoop on the Coga doc? When will it go to the world?
steve: Eminent. Within 3 weeks.
Judy: materials ready?
steve: Yes, finishing editorial review.
Judy: I meant not the doc, but the announcement materials. Shawn, who's the point person on announcement?
michael: Might be me, but...
Judy: For coga, if you've got a publication coming up in 3 weeks, we are already scrambling, unless Shawn...
Shawn: Don't know if it's roy or michael, haven't coordinated yet.
Judy: Steve, there's a bit of
process involved in trying to determine the succinct bits. May
take some back and forth. Michael, I think this is in your
court to get people oriented.
... do you have a coordination meeting with task force chairs
in next few days?
Michael: No.
Judy: Steve, so you know,
sometimes messaging is tough. Don't want to put colleagues in a
bind. Shawn can advise, but shouldn't be the default. Nice to
know the 3 or 4 message points you want to convey.
... Somebody needs to draft something.
... Who's best positioned in Coga?
shawn: Might be most efficient if
I would do more with this one. Michael and I have been
coordinating on some other activities.
... What I need to know is who's in the review and approval
path?
Steve: I'll add that to the agenda, part of the release.
Shawn: When is the meeting?
Steve: Tomorrow.
Shawn: I don't think you want it in the coga task force, I thing you want facilitators.
Judy: Steve, there's a background piece that Shawn can give you the link from, reminds how the messaging works. Do that as reading homework before the facilitation meeting.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WAI/announcements
Steve: I recall a wiki page.
Judy: That's the draft. Shawn has
an explainer page <link above>
... Shawn, I phrased so you don't become the default
writer.
... Michael, I'm counting on you to keep an eye on stuff along
with Shawn to make sure pieces fall into place.
Michael: I'll do my best.
Judy: If something seems off, let
Steve and Shawn know, and keep me clued in.
... Any other publications coming up real soon that we should
be planning on messaging?
judy: Michael, when is the review/period for WCAG 3 FPWD? Feb 26?
Michael: I don't remember exact date, but it's end of month.
Judy: In previous meeting, I made
plea for WAI groups to look at FPWD of WCAG 3.0
... Trying to recall... whether I think James you were going to
see if ARIA group wants to review.
... Chuck you are familiar with 3.0 FPWD. Kim, is that
something you are looking at in mobile? Or is mobile active, or
should they be active and review?
... And Steve, is this framed right for Coga. And Kim...
Kim: Everyone in mobile is in
WCAG, except for me. We are not that active right now. We are
still trying to figure out what's going on with apps.
... We had a meeting a couple of times, something came up, next
is looking at how to reword stuff.
... Simple language stuff. We haven't been that active.
Judy: Might need to rephrase some
of your guidance to match the syntax? But want to see how
stable it is?
... No, I think it's gotta be written differently for 3.0.
There's simple language.
... Can someone else comment on that question?
Kim: Talking about non-regular?
Judy: One of the goals is to have a broader scope. Mobile is a huge part of what we want to cover in 3.0. Of the sample items in FPWD, any specifically defined for mobile?
James: Stuff that's in... it's
very general. High level guidelines right now. It's hard to
look at them in any great detail to see how you might
successfully meet them on any platform.
... no need to review for Aria. We are in the weeds, and WCAG 3
is specifying at a higher level.
Judy: Does that present a risk that we'll publish guidelines that people will hear from WWW, and won't review because they don't say or cover mobile.
Kim: Eventually mobile will be
the same thing, you wouldn't leave out mobile. 10 years ago it
was something different. Now it's different. You can attach a
keyboard to mobile, almost everything applies to mobile.
... Making sure mobile is considered is important.
James: We are talking about mobile applications, right? Not mobile web?
Judy: W3C sees mobile as the
continuum. Web based applications on web based mobile
platforms, pretty close to native on native.
... With w3c accessibility guidelines we want to be sure we are
covering that. We can cover what we need to in the tech,
but...
... On the tech we can cover it, but unless we signal that,
people won't understand. There's a default that people thing
W3C doesn't do mobile. We need to overcome that hurdle.
James: I never hear that we don't do mobile. WCAG 2.1 doesn't cover native mobile cover, but does cover mobile web.
Judy: But people don't understand
that.
... There's a continuum of applicability, and people are in
different places understanding this.
... Missing Janina...
Tzviya: Wcag 3.0?
Judy: We had some cross-review commitments. Just want to make sure it's in progress, so we can get some feedback in the feedback time.
Tzviya: I want someone to come to the publishing group to present. Who?
Chuck: Jeanne.
Judy: do you concur Michael?
Chuck: Jeanne has it all prepared.
Judy: For ARIA, not right now?
James: Aria won't know what to do with this, but they may review in other rolls.
Judy: Follow up in Kim, you said
mobile group is there already, might be worth asking mobile to
review from that specific perspective.
... may need to invoke that roll.
judy: Reminder on COEPC. We want
to institute more regularly.
... Here's link.
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
Judy: Double request. Read and
review again, and get a fresh look at it. Add an agenda item to
discuss with the group, to encourage people to review and that
it's fresh.
... We hope to resume offering training opportunities.
... And we'll record as well.
... Lot's different from previous version.
... We have received request for other things, like bystander
training. right now it's basics.
judy: the advisory committee is
experimenting with office hours, 3 instances of an open
discussion meeting across time zones. Happened yesterday.
... On this topic of onboarding, it's come up in coordination
call in Dec to see how regular the practices were for
onboarding in the groups.
... Now come up as a W3C advisory committee, to get more
organized. For new orgs.
... I want to check in and see how you are doing in
incorporating new participants. What the best workflow might
be.
... Do you have anything organized, or do people get lost?
rachael: Coga has a regular
onboarding practice. Some emails, in meetings, we try to assign
some work. LIsa typically holds a 1 hour overview at 3
weeks.
... Reasonably successful.
Judy: Is that discussion or materials?
rachael: We have reference materials, we don't have a specific "onboarding" resource.
judy: Can you share with colleagues?
<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Key_Documents
tzviya: I have some opinions.
Onboarding at W3C is difficult. We are a group of specialists,
with special language. But encounter individuals with lots of
expertise.
... Also, W3C is 20 years old. People who have been here more
than 2 years have gotten the hang of it. We work in irc, if you
are younger than 40 you haven't worked in irc.
... When I ran onboarding for the former publishing working
group, I would do a twice a year newbies call.
... The questions I got from newbies was about irc.
... It's all about how to communicate using these tools.
... Figuring out tooling is a large part of it. If people
aren't use to github, that's another challenge.
... A standard welcome email, but needs to be
personalized.
... I encourange "welcome to my group" call.
Judy: James in making increasingly puzzled faces.
james: I threw some icons and
emojies to make it look interesting. To try and encourage
reading. No other real meaning.
... I haven't done that for a few months.
judy: I want to be careful of
time. I want to do a one minute check in with Janina.
... Janina, you had forwarded an agenda item for today's call,
but from 6 zoom calls. Do you recall?
Janina: Not critical we do it today. To discuss expectations and formalizing relations between different task forces in different groups. Primarily with where coga lives.
Judy: I think we have the right people, but not the right amount of time. We'll meet again in 2 weeks.
Michael: I would like Janina to introduce the topic today.
Judy: with regard to onboarding,
tzviya, I didn't know it was that bad.
... You mentioned concerns with tooling.
... Rachael you mentioned that we have a wiki page that
supports walk throughs.
... I want to systemitize at the org level. I want to do
something for WAI. We have diverse pockets of work, we would
still like to have materials to point to.
... Could be self study. How many groups have something that is
an online resource that could be linked to?
... Tzviya, does digital publishing have something? Does
AGWG?
... My impression is that James doesn't have anything.
James: We do poorly at onboarding. We don't have a great deal of time.
<tzviya> You could put ideas in https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/10
Judy: If you had a framework that you could populate, would that help get things done?
James: It might help, but what we
really need to do is a 2 times a year orientation meeting.
Those would be helpful.
... Something written is not personalized and glossed over. You
already have enough info to consume.
Rachael: I think the
documentation is helpful. The real key to success is hand
holding. 2 times a year feels like a lot but it probably needs
to be every 2 months. At 6 months you may lose people.
... Figuring out a good poc is a good start.
Judy: I get a view because I'm on
staff, I work closely with people who bring in new members.
There's no good point in the year, and then they want access to
everything.
... Maybe twice a year would be efficient, but an on demand
resource is something we see a need for.
... Maybe try and bring in someone who is working on
onboarding, or pick their brains.
... Thanks for all the feedback. Worth pursuing.
judy: This has come up 3 or 4
different places in last week, including in an office hours
meetings yesterday.
... Greg W. from salesforce talked about what they were doing.
I brought up relevance for accessibility.
... and another very Aria focused interest.
... I mentioned that into the AC discussion, got very
interested discussions. I re-connected Michael and Greg. I
thought that was up for discussion in APA. Today's meeting, or
upcomming?
Janina: We wouldn't have had time in today's call to get into the details. It will have to be in near future.
Michael: I thought it was not to be in an APA call. Aria is tracking.
Judy: Thanks for clarification. I
want to get the docs connected. There's a burst of framing
activity.
... AOM tracking is connected with open U/I if possible. Where
is Accessibility Object Model being tracked from?
James: We don't track but we are aware.
Judy: I'm tracking because
there's need for cross platform connections. Some people
thought W3C could host, some thought AOM could host. But only
if we actively put the agenda in front of people.
... What would the relationship be between Open UI and AOM.
Michael, if not being tracked, I want to get a better handle on
what discussions are happening.
Steve: Hita is tracking on his personal time. He has not been coordinating. Doesn't know about what the community is trying to promote.
Judy: We want to avoid some
risks. I want to get to the task force coordination issue. but
based on conversations on this, there is not a well coordinated
effort to track.
... Janina or James, any comments on what SHOULD be
happening?
Janina: Was the last time brought up at TPAC?
James: hasn't gone dormant. But review is super slow. At stage is where it needs implementations in browsers, and privacy concerns rear.
Michael: Hita told me Mozilla pulled out.
Judy: Pulled out of AOM or open u/i?
Michael: Out of AOM.
Judy: There seemed to be based on the conversations I had yesterday. We ought to have a follow up meeting on this. It's watching an opportunity slip by that could be leveraged.
James: What do you envision coming out of a cross platform api? I don't see how that would fit in with how the different api's work on the api's themselves. That's what core AOM is, the mappings from web to different platforms.
Judy: A thin layer that
enables... much broader number of AT than platforms. It impacts
the AT business.
... having an impact on diversity for AT. I think the
conversation needs to happen is more detailed than would fit
right now.
... I want Janina to introduce topic. In terms of a follow up,
Janina you are aware of the decades of history. I'd count you
in on a side discussion. James sounds like you have some
interest.
James: Sounds like AOM is the platform, and 90% there.
Judy: Not trying to stop that work. But q came up, what's the relation between AOM and open u/i?
Michael: We working on mappings, AOM wants to use the vocabulary, open u/i is attempting to define usable accessible controls that cannot be done in native platforms.
Judy: This may be the relevant
venue. That overview would be nice to share with other WAI
groups. To update people and get input.
... Janina, introduce concept about task force positioning and
scope and coordination.
Janina: Grew out of conversations
in APA related to COGA having been a joint task force. Turned
out to be controversial to drop from APA.
... We didn't do our due diligence either.
... As part of the conversation, it came up that we
historically formed as a joint group, but maybe other groups
should join or have a formalized relationship. Should we have
expectations?
... There's expertise across the TF, APA needs somebody from
all these areas to do a good job of horizontal review.
... Upshot is that someone is showing up in COGA.
Judy: Thanks for the teaser, that
we'll follow up on in next meeting. I want to see how much we
can fit in.
... Question - how much time would get a good discussion going,
30 minutes? Question - can you write up an agenda request that
has some background, but not necessarily a book?
Janina: I can do that.
Judy: Time length?
Janina: Initial, 60 minutes should be enough.
Judy: I want us to come back to the AOM discussion and open u/i. Don't know if it's realistic to fit into next meeting.
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