<kevin> scribe: kevin

Media bullets

Brent: Survey was out following last discussion. Aim was to add the quick check list in the summary.
... Lots of good feedback in the survey.

Shawn: There was a comment from Shadi that would be good for him to cover.

Shadi: I marked this as editors discretion. I liked the summary and the quick tips in the bullets.
... They serve multiple purposes. Give a good overview, it is actionable, and it also helps returning users to find things quickly.
... On scrolling I thought it was starting to get really long. There is some repetition.
... There is a lot about what it is and why it is important. I was wondering if a lot of the content could be a subpage of the resource.

<estella> +1 to Shadi

Shadi: This could help it be more referencable; it would have a clear point in the navigation.
... Also it would be easier for people who do not need the content to skip it.
... My concern is that people new to the topic might be put off by the extremely long introduction page.

Shawn: I have mocked up a check list on a separate page but Shadi's idea is slightly different.
... Another option is that the first page is like what is there but with some expand/collapse of the long content.

<brentb> Kevin: Favorable to Shadi's idea. Has an element of "why is this important." I do worry that just having the checklist on the overview page may be too little of information. Maybe we can find a balance between the two.

<brentb> ... Maybe the checklist and a bit of information about why it is important.

Shawn: We also had a page at one point which had the section on How to Make Audio and Video Accessible on one page.

<brentb> Kevin: The concern was that there was too much content there. Maybe work on summarizing the current information a little more and then lead into a subpage that has more detail.

<brentb> ... Summary checklist at the top, then into the detail of how to make audio and video accessible, then the example video. Everything else into a subpage.

Shawn: I agree this is a little too repetitive with the checkpoints. So for example in the summary there is 'describe visual content' with more information that is repeated below

Estella: I agree with Shadi, we are providing a guide on what and how but there is a why missing.
... I would encourage understanding user needs as a first point.

<shawn> SLH note to self ---> understand user needs as top bullet

Brent: I don't think there is too much on this page. I also don't know if the bullets should be there or not.
... I know that the whole purpose is to help give a quick glance. I think anyone that is serious will find all this anyway.
... The second section 'How to Make...'. To me the title should be something more 'What makes audio and video accessible'
... The rest of the resources points to 'how'.

Shawn: The first three points don't quite point to that though.

Shadi: I agree with Estella. Shawn, you were showing two types of checklist. Both are pretty good to me for the front page.
... I could see a lengthier one in place of the current shorter bullet points at the top of the page.
... It is a good reminder that leads into more of the resource.
... I don't think the checklist/summary should be on a serpate page though.
... What I am thinking about is the bottom content. If we throw everything out it might lead to too little on the overview page.
... I think a lot could be on a 'user' focused page about understanding the user and engaging with users.
... THe different section is 'How to Make...'. This is becoming a bit redundant.
... We could include the paragraphs in this section in the relavant subpage at the start.

Shawn: This has actually just been added into the summary.

Shadi: Then that section ('How to Make...') could be removed without much lost. I don't know that it adds much any longer to the resource.

Shawn: Some of the intro to this section isn't in the sub-pages so there may be scope to keep some of it.

Shadi: What I liked about Estella's suggestion of having a page on 'users' then it could be referenced more easily.

<shadi> +1 to visuals

Estella: I like the whole page. I can see it may be a bit long. I like the 'How to make' because it includes some graphics - I know there are mixed feelings on this but the visuals do add.
... I wouldn't be keen to see this section removed.

Shawn: I wonder if there is an inbetween a little more than a checklist but not quite as much as longer paragraphs within the summary.

<shadi> +1 to proposal

Shawn: What I am leaning towards is a bit of a mashup between the above, with the video and a short intoro to understanding users with a link off.

<estella> +1 to proposal

Kris Anne: When it comes to media, I think this needs to be much more comprehensive.

scribe: Many think that media just needs captions and that is all sorted.
... There is a need to make sure that people are aware that there are broader needs.
... It is a lot of information but people really need to know this.
... I am all for having a 'why' page - that can really help drive it home for people.

<shawn> SLH note to self ---> to the why section - add our 5 icons eye, ear, etc.

Shawn: If we move the 'why' we could include the icons within there.

Kris Anne: That visual reinforcement might be helpful

Shadi: Completely agree with you Kris Anne, I wouldn't suggest removing any information.
... Putting it in as a specific point in the navigation would also give this more emphasis.
... Big +1 to Shawn's suggestion of having a more elaborated summary at the top, possibly with the icons.

Daniel: I like the proposal but just a couple of points.
... There may be a risk that people just skip the navigation so we would need to ensure that the 'why' was included in the overview somehow as well.

Shawn: I agree. If we do move them then I will look at an intro. THe other thing is that each of the bullets does have something of the why is included there already.
... I would propose that we go ahead and publish this as we have the summary bullets in there and then I look at reworking based on comments from today.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to propose that we accept this page as an interim solution so we can get the bullets added now. then in Jan, I'll work on rejigging as discussed

<estella> +1

Shawn: WOuld everyone be comfortable with that approach?

<Laura> +1

+1

<hdv> +1

<brentb> +1

<krisannekinney> +1

<Howard> +1

<dmontalvo> +1, it was not a major issue for me

<JasonMcKee> 1+

<shadi> +1

Shadi: Do you have a sense of timeline?

Shawn: Plan would be to look at this in January

Estella: Just a minor comment about accessible media players. People often just focus on this side of the issue.

Shawn: Agreed, although this has been highlighted as an larger issue.
... When we first did this there was more of a use case of existing videoes. Now we are in the situation where there are more people creating new videos.
... People are creating videos and are not doing the basics of accessibility when designing their videos.
... Does this mean we should be proposing putting video players later in the resource?

Kris Anne: I think the player is still an important part of the question

Shawn: Maybe just move it later in the checklist?

Kris Anne: Maybe but all the work in creating a video is wasted if the player is not considered. This comes to placement on a checklist and how people prioritise this.

scribe: I want to make sure it is still seen and still considered important.

Shawn: Studies on list processing shows that there is higher recall rates for first and last list items.

Howard: Describe visual information takes me to media players which doesn't seem to discribe much about this point.

Kevin: Looks like the link in the summary is incorrect

Daniel: ON the placement of the video player, placing as the last bullet might benefit from also having a stronger remark.
... I agree with Kris Anne's comment that all the work can be wasted if there is an inaccessible player.

Shawn: There is some comment within the content below that talks more about this that could be included.

Estella: One of the problems is that there is no media player that provides you with everything.

Shawn: What about AblePlayer? Don't do everything but they do have most of it

Estella: One of the main problems is to integrate sign language, audio description and captions. This is covering absolutely everything.
... This would be on top of ensuring that the player itself was accessible.
... ALso, the player may not be free which makes some other online services more attractive if there is limited budget.

Shawn: Check out AblePlayer which is free and does support sign language.
... Do we have support to move the media player stuff lower?

<Howard> I think that's fine - moving it down.

<estella> +1 to move it lower in the list

<hdv> +1

<Howard> +1

<Laura> +1

<JasonMcKee> +1

<krisannekinney> +1

<brentb> +1

<dmontalvo> +1 with mentioned tweaks

<shadi> +1

Shawn: Currently the introduction leas with "It helps you:".... and then "Provide sign language".
... Even though this isn't a checklist people may well read it as such.
... We know that sign language is AAA and is often not done because of the complexity and cost.
... There were some options to include some caveats for the sign language point.

<Howard> I like "when possible" language.

Sharron: We have been contacted a lot by people trying to figure out what to do about media.
... One of the things is knowing your audience. It may well be that your audience would make things like sign language more important.
... One thing that we recommend is to check with attends on their needs before hand.

Laura: Could modify this point to be 'Know your audience and provide sign language if required'.

Estella: The issue is that if you are Deaf then you need the service. In the ideal world Deaf people wouldn't need to ask.
... W3C have set the standard at AAA which might discourage people from pushing to this level and providing sign language by default.

<shadi> +1 to Estella

Estella: It is important to know your audience but your audience is everybody.

Howard: I would qualify the option for sign language. I think people will see this as a bullet point that might overwhelm people.
... I think there is a bit of circularity. If you go to plan for example, you read down to the introduction which then points you back to the overview page.
... Wonder if it would be better to move that link back further down in the sub-page introductions.

Shawn: Actually it isn't on any of the other page but I will take a look at it. There is an issue of what if you come to one of the sub-pages.

<shawn> SLH ---> look at first bit in planning page -- not need to point to other pages up front?

Laura: I can't agree that the audience is everyone and there is a reason that sign language is AAA.
... Organisations ask people if signing is needed because it is cost prohibitive.

<Howard> +1 to Laura's point

Laura: I feel strongly that there should be some qualification to the need for sign language.

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/EO2020-12Dec-18/#wbssign

Estella: Sometimes Deaf people can become invisible because a service is not announced. This can impact other groups as well.
... Not telling these groups that accomodations would be offered won't lead to people asking for it. The assumption is often that accomodations are simply not available.
... I think it is important to make these offers more normal.

<shawn> [ brainstorming: Provide sign language when needed for your audience, so that Deaf people whose native language is sign get the content in their native language. ]

Laura: I agree completely with your points, but in this particular case I think it needs to be qualified.
... I think organisations should be encouraged to asked about user needs.

Estella: I agreed that we need to have it and it needs to be communicated that it can be provided. I will leave it to Shawn to word it.

Howard: I agree with what Estella said but I still think it needs to be qualified.
... THinking about our recent conference the idea of providing sign language for 100+ hours of videos is quite daunting.

Shadi: I agree with all of the above. I understand the situation where I am faced with people who expect me to have asked for accomodations.
... THinking about the qualifications, I think it might be about the sub-page itself rather than the summary.
... I feel we are trying to address two separate situations. Everyone is creating videos and not providing sign language.
... We want to point out to people that all this video production needs to be accessible.
... We have an increase in general video content being delivered, for example government statements.
... I think moving the whole resource moving towards just video rather than events is a balancing act.
... It might be worth to explore the idea of including notes to call out specific event or video points.

<shawn> SLH ---> do we want to point to Make Presentations Accessible some where or other?

Shadi: The aim is to just avoid the whole resource doesn't become too specific to one use case or too broad that it is too general.

<Sharron> Scribe: Sharron

<shawn> [ brainstorming: Provide sign language when needed for your audience, so that Deaf people whose native language is sign get the content in their native language. ]

Shawn: I had brainstormed "provide sign language interpretation when needed for your audience, so that deaf people whose native language is Sign can receive information in native language"

<dmontalvo> Seems good

<JasonMcKee> I think the sentence works even if you end it at 'audience'

Laura: Yes it is OK, seems to work

Howard: would tweak a bit on the end part of the sentence.

<Howard> ... so that deaf people who need it can receive information in their native language."

+1 to Jason

<Laura> +1 Jason

<shawn> SLH -->> open issue on wording of sign bullet - maybe not need the last part?

Shawn: Also wanted to introduce for more consdieration in January that we put a couple of the course videos on the web site and there is an example of integrated description. Watch for that.

<shawn> Other topic: adding example of integrated description - probably "Low vision: Challenging assumptions and understanding differences" video from course https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/foundations-course/#video-excerpts-from-the-course

Jason: I had a staff member take the course, how would like feedback delivered?

<shawn> wai@w3.org just to team -- wai-eo-editors@w3.org public

Shawn: I will review to see if we have enough agreement to publish some updates and look forward to working on it in January, hoping for draft iterations in early January

Content Usable draft from COGA

Shawn: Hope we all had a chance to look at the survey intro

<shawn> see "About this Review and Survey" section of https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/COGA-Dec2020/

Shawn: EO submitted comments to COGA about their doc to be published in TR space. We had concerns, several related to Business Case and Usablity sections. Chairs had a discussion with doc editors and TF faciltators. They asked for more input/clarification.

<shawn> Sharron: strong appreciation for what they did.

Shawn: we need justifications and explanantion for what we are suggesting and an understanding of the fact that they have reluctance to adopt our recommendsation and

<shawn> ... We had lots of strcutural and content sections -- based on our experience on how documenta are received by different audiences. They are reluctant. We need to be clear about appreciation -- and what we strongly think.

<shawn> ... be as specific as possible aboout *why* for the changes for this excellent content

Shawn: One of the things we ask is to mark low medium high and it would be good to go ahead and list the things that you see but be sure to rate them.

KrisAnne: When we first spoke about ti, you asked for an EO liaison and I vlunteered to do that. Where does that stand?

Sharron: We need you to join AG and I will make the intro to the TF chairs

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/#about

Shawn: And EO has said we are open and welcome COGA input to update and integrate more cognitive information in our docs.
... the open survey asks about things to add to existing resources to strengthen the message
... so while we may not get the changes we want, we still feel that they should point to exisiting, vetted resources in WAI pages

KrisAnne: Please send me anything I need to get up to speed

Shawn: Links are in the survey
... and the survey is open until Jan 11

Course promotions

<brentb> Intro to Web Accessibility Course: https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/foundations-course/

Shawn: We updated the course intro page, added some quotes etc and have useful reasons to take and use the course, has international flair, added video etc
... will appreciate any promoton you can do, linked to the survey results and those are main changes.

Sharron: How many have taken it

Shawn: Between 17 and 18 K

Brent: Will the course be changed based on the feedback?
... How will it change next year?

Shawn: It will always be available. If we update, we won't have a gap.

Laura: I was only going to say that at the Library we use it and I have promoted it for all our staff. I am pushing it very hard. It may be part of the orientation for all staff.

Kevin: I am promoting it to the Scottish Digital Academy who I ureged to give WAI credit for creating it.

Thanks!!!

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Default Present: shawn, Howard, estella, kevin, brentb, shadi, JasonMcKee, Daniel, Sylvie, Laura, Hidde, Sharron
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Found Date: 18 Dec 2020
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