Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference

04 Dec 2020


Shawn, Brent, Hidde, Laura, Kevin, Daniel, Jason, Shadi, JasonMcKee, Howard
Mark, Vicki, Sharron, @@from-survey
hdv, kevin, Shawn


W3Cx education course outreach and promotion

brentb: We'll swap the first two subjects on the agenda. W3CX course first, redesign second.

shawn9: Last year, we launched a free online course using a curricula that EOWG developed. We're launching a new session for this
... because many folks may have extra time over the holidays
... so we'd like to ask EO for help promoting. And content and layout for the page on the WAI site


JasonMcKee: I did review it and it looks great!

Laura: does this mean it is official?

shawn9: yes! We say 'we expect an updated version of this course to be available in the long term'
... we see employers encourage their employees to take this course

Laura: good to know it will be around for a while, I can reinforce that to our teams considering to take the course

shadi: I really like the photos at the bottom
... I do think the graphic with the computer is quite wide

shawn: yes, there's only two sizes for images like that in the WAI style guide, this one or a much smaller one
... we're looking at fixing this
... would anyone like to help with CSS for the images and their descriptions?

Laura: I would be happy to have a look at it

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask about zebra bolding and ask about quotes

kevin: in course content, the syllabus section has bold in some parts and not bold in some others, is that by design?

shawn: yes
... to make them stand out

kevin: it looks like it may get the reverse effect, and make the other ones stand out
... quotes are brilliant. But do you have quotes from the people who have taken the course? That would be more brilliant

shawn: we do, actually!
... I guess the question is: do we want to put some student quotes, and if so, how would we vet them?

<dmontalvo> +1 to quotes from people who took the course

kevin: yes, I think it would be really good… if you wanted to avoid vetting them, you could make sure you have a link to a full list of quotes, to make clear this is the tip of the iceberg

brentb: this is not for profit… so does it matter that you vet the quotes? can't we just select the most powerful quotes

shawn: I think so… but am happy to run it by W3C comms team, to make sure I'm not missing something
... I'll check on that if you guys think it is something we should do

JasonMcKee: I asked a few people to take a look too

estella: I've also sent it to a few people, and I am myself also taking it, so I'll leave a quote… one important thing to me is to be honest with the quote s

<JasonMcKee> :)

shawn: if you've taken the course, I'd welcome you to jot down notes, from yourself or others you've told about the course, any feedback, so that we can look at what to revise next year, hopefully EOWG can help decide what to improve
... not sure if we need the feedback in this list of tweets

shadi: we probably don't want quotes like 'this is the best since sliced breads', which we did get and appreciate, but more like ‘this helped me learn X and Y’

shawn: somebody said “I recommend this, even I learned something” and she was a recognised expert, so that kind of comment may be interesting to use too

Howard: I think there's no need to be “honest”, we can pick out the ones that fits the best… no need to pick the ones that are negative feedback, constructive or otherwise per se

brentb: I'd say pick one that is meaningful for people to read, beyond just a “pat on the back”

estella: I agree with all of you… is there any way to gather feedback to canalise all the issues?

shawn: there are different ways to collect feedback

shadi: weren't most of these posted on social media or personal emails, unsolicited?

estella: what I mean is… in systems like Coursera, you could ask specific questions to users in order to get specific feedback… so that you can get more specific information

shawn: we do have a survey

<JasonMcKee> nevermind i was going to ask if we had a survey...

shawn: where gather some of that information

dmontalvo: I agree with you all about the quotes
... just a couple of questions… something I don't fully understand from the heading structures… there is a heading 'video excerpts' and 'provided by', I am not sure if this works well, maybe it should be underneath @@@

shawn: we need to change the headings and are still thinking about wording them

dmontalvo: in the text alternative on the image with the checkboxes, there is @@@@, am not sure what this means

shawn: the image itself has the word “checks”, plural, not sure if I should add a colon.

dmontalvo: was not sure if it meant checkboxes
... otherwise it looks very nice, I really like it

kevin: to jump on that one… why not remove the checks bit from the image?

dmontalvo: I don't follow

kevin: the image, on the left, has the word checks with a few boxes with checkmarks, on the right it is a computer screen with lots of checkmarks and crosses on it

Howard: I would leave it

Laura: I would also leave it

<estella> +1 to Kevin or maybe change the image for another one more meaningful

kevin: it was just a suggestion

+1 to kevin from Hidde too

+.5 actually

shadi: since this is for non technical people as well… we go through all SCs, but the exercises are mostly about checking, not deep into HTML

shawn: we should have asked JasonMcKee , what does the image say to you?

JasonMcKee: it is pretty confusing to me… but if I think about it and try to understand it, it says to me I can probably learn to make a website accessible

Howard: the graphic reinforces what the text says… I think both sides of the images are good

brentb: when I looked at the page I skipped over the image altogether, but now I hear everyone talk, I realise the image is mostly about one bullet, the last one, it doesn't convey what you get from the course
... to me it would be better to have an image that conveys that

shawn: one of the main things we wanted to convey with this page… we didn't want to have too much background/fluffy info, we wanted to show what you can learn and use today
... so the image was to convey, you'll learn how to stuff, in practice

shadi: I feel the checking applies to the other bullet points too

brentb: ok with that in mind, it would be less confusing with just the monitor

shadi: the monitor on its own might convey features on a page … the checks for me indicate some activity

shawn: unless anyone is not comfortable, let's keep it with the two pieces
... I'd like for you all to think about how we can reach new students
... feel free to add to the outreach page on the wiki

<dmontalvo> +1 this is an entry barrier for some, even if very technical

shawn: we do have plans to do translations of the course

estella: will there be translations ?

<kevin> Scribe: kevin

WCAG Supporting document redesign

shawn: Hidde has been working on redesigning the Understanding and Techniques pages
... He has some questions about how we use the current documents and how we might use them better
... We were interested to see how people use these pages
... So I would read the Success Criteria, skim the intent, skip the benfits as I know them quite well and use the examples quite a bit
... I then get to the bottom and maybe look at getting to the next one although would use the labels at the top
... Would anyone else be willing to do a screen share to talk through how they use it?

Brent: Many ways that I come to the pages mostly depending on who I am talking with.
... I always go to the WAI website and go to the standards page and navigate to the Quick Reference.
... When I go there, I refeence the list and the filters. I will then pick an example and highlight the actual Success Criteria.
... I would then lead them into the Understanding document. I typically don't lead them into the Techniques or spend too much time on the language of the Success Criteria.
... The SC is in the Understanding but the important bit is usually the Intent.
... I typically don't point people to the in-page navigation.
... If I am talking to technical people I will spend more time on the Techniques and Examples.
... Generally I don't mention Next and Pervious as people are generally looking at one specific thing. On the Media SC I do reference them as they are in a related block.
... I don't usually miss these buttons at the bottom of the page though.
... I don't lead people to the full Understanding document.
... I didn't know that there were two sets of Understanding documents that look slightly different. I didn't understand that I was looking at a different set of Understanding documents though.

shawn: That is a known issue that we are looking at.
... I wonder if someone would talk about using Techniques.

Laura: This isn't something I look at as I don't do formal audits.

<shawn> scribe: Shawn

Kevin: Like Brent, I start from Quick Ref page. looking for something specific. I know roughly what's there, I don't remember exact wording. eg., I'll search for heading - read SC - go to Understanding doc.
... dont' use prev - next 'cause usually looking for specific thing.
... also don't use page contents 'cause it's way over on the right - easier to just scroll
... [more specifics slh can't keep up with ... ]
... 1. I'm linking someone to the Understadnign doc and having them look at something, 2. I'm checking my own memory of the SC
... if teaching someone, start with the QuickRef

<scribe> scribe: Kevin

shawn: Hidde, is that helpful?

Hidde: Yes, it is useful to see. One thing I am working on is navigation between these pages.
... We talked about having prev/next in Understanding documents but not in the Techniques.
... I have realised that Prev/Next links in the Understanding pages isn't that straight forward.
... There is a link up to the associated Guideline and when on a Guideline page there is a link to the first SC
... Question is whether we want to keep these links at all.
... So if I go to a Guideline, at the bottom I have included a link to the previous and next Guideline.
... This is much less than the existing pages.
... Contents link has been replaced by including it in the primary navigation. And the links to the SC are included as a full list rather than just linking to the first one.
... Is it ok to remove the link to the first SC?
... And is ok to have the prev/next just at the bottom?

Brent: So how would I get to the SC?

Hidde: They are linked in the Contents page and there is a full list in the Guidelines page

Brent: So which one are you talking about removing?

Hidde: Just the one from the bottom of the page navigation

+1 to the approach

Brent: I would be curious from a screen reader users perspective might be about these navigation elements? Is being at the bottom a problem? Or would a screen reader user pull up a links list to find them

<JasonMcKee> +1 as well but for visual agree screen reader experience needs evaluated

Daniel: I have been following the discussion on the issue. My personal preference is that it is useful to have the navigation but when visiting the page the content is the important thing.
... So having this at the bottom for me is fine.

Brent: That is fair to have your personal opinion

Daniel: My expectation is to go to the content. If there is something there that isn't the content then it is a bit distracting.

Shadi: I don't think I have ever used the navigation buttons as I don't read through the SC or Guidelines one after the other.
... I would use the QuickRef to find what I am looking for and then dip into the Understanding.
... So, either we remove the navigation or giving people the option to read through the whole set of documents.
... If someone is reading through the whole page then having the navigation at the bottom makes more sense.

<JasonMcKee> I have to jump on a call thank you everyone have a great weekend!

Brent: The only time I have ever used those buttons was when I was sitting with content teams to go through all SC to identify what was applicable for them.
... As an approach that took ages and this is the only time I would probably need to use them like that.

Shadi: Then the link at the bottom would work for that situation

Shawn: I do use them, not very often though.
... For example, for Text Contrast minimum and enhanced are three away from each other. Then I would use those to navigate between those.
... This would be if I was pointing someone to both SC then I would go to one, copy the URL then go to the other and copy that URL.
... Also, I often skim the top and don't read down to the bottom.

Shadi: But you are likely to be partway down the page anyway.

Howard: I usually get to the Understand page through QuickRef so not sure how to get to the Guideline page anyway.
... So there is Understanding for the SC in the QuickRef but the Guideline Understanding documents aren't linked.

Shawn: Most of the Guidelines Understanding pages are quite short.

Brent: I knew they were there but I don't really use them.

Howard: If people are starting from the QuickRef then they will never really get to these.

<shawn> [ Shawn doesn't use the quickref much 'cause it's very cluttered ]

Hidde: There is a link included in SC that will link to the Guideline Understanding document related.
... That might make them more discoverable!

Brent: What is the use case for the Guideline Understanding document. It gives a summary of the SC but they are sometimes all over the place.
... I can see Time-based media it being useful as an overview.
... For other Guidelines is seems there is more of a wider range of topics that might not make it that useful.

Shawn: Most of them are really short and more of a table of contents/introduction.

<shawn> Kevin: the Understadningn Guidelines pages useful to help things hang together - communicates the concept of the Guidelines, the SCs under them.

Howard: I would agree, it is a nice way of chunking up the content and looking at the Guidelines in a more holistic way.
... Now that I know it is there, I think I might try to use it.

Brent: In introductory training I would generally pick specific Success Criteria and explore them further.
... Last year I changed this to explore via the Guideline and this would have been helpful for that.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say I do and to say , and also anaomly

Hidde: Are there any other questions or comments on the navigation items?
... Good, thanks everyone for the feedback. I don't see strong cases against removing the links but we will look at the positioning.
... Most people seem to be in favour of them being at the bottom but we will explore.

Shadi: I think consensus is definitely for being at the bottom. There is a bit of a question as to whether they should be at the top as well.

Shawn: I will see if there are any analytics to see if these links are used.

Making Audio and Video Media Accessible

Shawn: Two meetings ago there was a request for QuickTips for Media.

<shawn> https://deploy-preview-143--wai-media-guide.netlify.app/media/av/

Shawn: I drafted this but it was considered redundant as it replicated the introduction of the resource section.
... First question, what are your thoughts on having the quick tips as a summary in the opening page?

+1 I like it

<estella> +1

<brentb> +1 for approach as it matches the navigation too

<Laura> +1

Shawn: Any concerns?

<Howard> +1

Shawn: Awesome

RESOLUTION: Accept approach to include tips as a summary at the top of the page

Shawn: Any comments on the wording on those bullet points?

Brent: One thing to mention, I like the way that the bullet list matches the navigation.

+1 agree that is good

Shadi: The 'Use checklists' in the first point is a bit... we tell people not to think about checklists. I know this is different and there is a checklist section.
... I think it needs a little bit more.

Shawn: Agreed, I will take another pass at that one.

<shawn> [ @@ SLH "use checklists" issue from saz ]

Howard: 'Provide captions' jumps to the captions page not to the explaination on the same page.
... Not sure if it would be better to jump to the in-page first rather than the full page.

Shawn: Good point to think about. All the content in the paragraph on the first page is explained more thoroughly in the main pages.

Shadi: The main topic page is structured a bit differently though. For example the description of captions on the main page is more succinct than that on the topic page.
... It bugs me a bit that the summary is on the main page but not on the topic page. It is like the design forces you to read the main page and you miss out a bit if you jump into a sub page

Estella: The second point is ok but how was it that you selected what is in bold and is not in bold? There is some other content that doesn't follow the pattern.

Shawn: I was flagging the key points that people were missing when preparing conference videos
... They don't need to worry too much about media player

Estella: Is this not mentioned in the planning section? I tend to focus on the bold and that might distract.
... I agree with you that conference video preparation is more of an issue.

Shawn: The people I think will look at this, most of them will skip the first bullet.
... They will see this as a list of what they need to do and 'plan' may not be concrete enough for them.

Estella: I agree with the point but I wasn't sure why some were bold and other bits weren't.

<shadi> +1 to estella

<brentb> +1 to too much bold

Laure: I agree with Estella. I feel that the summary is calling out the steps and the bold isn't really necessary.

Shawn: Bold does help some people, but is this too distracting in this case?

Laura: I think if it were consistent then it might be less of a distraction or would make the importance more clear.

Shawn: Some of these issues need to be worried by fewer people, particularly around conference videos.

Laura: The media player issue was much more important for me

Shawn: Agreed that there are different user needs being presented in this

Brent: We should try to hit the majority of people but maybe if conference is a big issue then we could address that specifically.

<estella> +1 to Laura plus in our case we are speakers at conferences and a conference organisation

Shawn: I think the bigger group at the moment are those that don't need to think about media players and this is likely to be the case for a while.

Brent: I like the use of bold to attract attention. I think in this case it doesn't work for me as there is a bit too much.

<shawn> Kevin: coming back to current issue - maybe pull out things that are not relevant for some people making videos -- maybe headings ?

<estella> Or maybe move the point about the media player to a lower level?

Brent: Are there any other issue that stand out?

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/av-content/

Shawn: If we look at this page, I wonder if it has everything that someone needs for conference video preparation.
... We could then point audiences to this page specifically.

Howard: Just a quick suggestion, on one of the more detailed pages it might be good to have a link to related Guidelines or Success Criteria.

Work for this Week and Weekly Survey

Brent: There is a Curricula survey opening today covering the Developer content.
... Based on the last survey and a new module there is enough to come back to the WG.
... The survey guides you through what the major changes were and draws you through those asking for thoughts.
... This is another monkey review and is open until December 15th.
... We can then take a look at it on the final week before the break forthe holiday season.

Shawn: I am looking to ask some feedback on some of the resources I am working on.
... Also if people could think about how we might promote the course.

Brent: Thank you so much to everyone for your time in working on all these things!

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. Accept approach to include tips as a summary at the top of the page
[End of minutes]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version (CVS log)
$Date: 2020/12/04 18:09:25 $