Silver 11 September 2020

11 Sep 2020


jeanne, Todd, Rachael, Chuck, Grady_Thompson, MichaelC, Francis_Storr, sajkaj, CharlesHall, shari, Yakim, Wilco_, KimD, PeterKorn, sarahhorton, caryn-pagel, kirkwood
David, F, shawn, L, Makoto, U, Angela, H


<Rachael> yw. Chuck is here helping as well

<scribe> scribe: sajkaj

New AGWG survey on WCAG3 updates

ca: Above is survey for AG discussion Tuesday
... Questions about reorg, then also section by section

<Rachael> link to survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/silver-fpwd-2/

New ED version with HowTo and Method templates

mc: My changes are editorial ...

js: Show off the templates!

rm: Number of edits made from AG review mtg two weeks ago

mc: Discusses template ...
... howtos oriented at nondevelopers
... methods -- we now have for headings

. examples more developer oriented
. links to tests; info on scoring and rating; links to resources
. styling comes from WAI website

<sarahhorton> Looks great!

. howtos and methods are top level folders in silver repo
. name file for guideline
. important not to change struct of headings, ids, etc., but simply add content
. makes it easy to deploy in multiple ways going forward

js: very excited to see them actuated!

. we need outcome names today

<MichaelC> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Vu0ix-d-Qrv1wDZYQhfUX6jICE_bRalypp1rtcie8w/edit#gid=1900920998

<Rachael> git template of how-to: https://github.com/w3c/silver/tree/master/how-tos/template

<Rachael> Git template of methods: https://github.com/w3c/silver/tree/master/methods/template

<PeterKorn> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines

wilco: asks for links ...

mc: available from the guidelines

. has short and long names

js: asks subgroups to get names in place -- outcome names
... much has moved in past two weeks ...
... takes up amazon submission

rm: thought some points were already addressed
... now editor's notes in both locations
... asking for feedback via wbs

<Rachael> Just pointing out that both the Survey and meeting are joint

<Rachael> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#requirements

<Rachael> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#defining-conformance-scope

rm: believes they're where amazon asked for them to be

ca: reads notes ...

<Rachael> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#evaluation-scope

rm: one more

<jeanne> The model presented provides a structure for claiming conformance that is better suited to accommodate dynamic or more regularly updated content. We are exploring an alternative approach using holistic tests, sampling and/or other alternatives for reaching conformance in situations where testing all content is not possible. We also plan on including a definition and concept for substantially

<jeanne> conforming.

<kirkwood> “regardless of disability they live with” rather see: “regarless of ability or disability” (remove they live with)

pk: suggests coming back in a few moments ...

rm: suggests submitting edits over the weekend

js: suggests some items noted under "not yet" are actually in guidelines, which we haven't looked at much yet

<Rachael> for example we provide a way of handling friction through a critical failure

. friction via critical path failures

js: meanwhile back totemplate of the method

. asks for discussion on handling dependencies of methods; related methods
. eg. three methods for structured content; should they require each other?
. phps all 3, but because of outcomes reqs

<Chuck> ach Mich

mc: since functional outcomes are already required; no need to say
... rather this method doesn't work unless this other also followed

wilco: suggests multiple ways -- some with page struct

. are they conditional?
. is it 1? or all?

js: we'll learn as we build up more content

. for now it's 1

sarah: understood one outcome and multiple methods for achieving it; but may need to act on multiple methods depending on content

[discussion whether spreadh sheet is correct?]

rm: intent for a clear .and. relation for outcomes; and .or. at method level

pk: done first read and compare--thanks for working it in so quickly ...

mc: suggests let's finish this topic first

pk: yes, indeed

<Rachael> And between Outcomes, Or between methods, An outcome should address the same result and affect the same subset of functional categories

mc: multiple tests per method; so greater granularity; so mostly .or.
... room exists for exceptions, but should be an exception

<Rachael> agreed!

js: is there consensus that if one method requires another under the same outcome, that's what goes in the dependencies?

<Chuck> +1 agreed

mc: my hope!

js: any disagreement?

. asks sarah if this sounds workable?

sarah: asks for clarification

js: map outcomes

sarah: yes

js: back to amazon suggestions ...

pk: asks about "simplified summary" -- entire block? where does "simplified" end

js: response for request to have plain lang summaries

mc: summaries should be separated block -- to be read or skipped; and is summary for entire section -- until next heading of the same heading

pk: is summary of sec 1 the two sentences right underneath "simplified" or continue to ...

mc: the box -- should be visible

pk: do not see summary actually summarizes;

<Rachael> +1 That makes sense.

<Chuck> janina: I caught that there was some intent to set anything off is because I looked at the source and saw the asides. I didn't see a break of any kind.

<Chuck> janina: No breaks there.

sj: notes not demarcated for screen reader

pk: notes that remaining intro sections should probably be summarized; but also to pull out an explicit "goal" section
... "move closer to the lived experience" -- that we get better and better and we strive to get better and better

mc: partly writing style; and seemed more relevant to req doc than the guidelines

pk: no complaint over tone alighnment!
... asks doesn't it make sense to call out the goals of the doc; more than an ed note

mc: would like to think it over

<Chuck> janina: There are goal statements scattered throughout. It would be an interesting exercise to pull them together and make a paragraph or 2 or 3 from them.

<Chuck> Janina: I think it's very useful to make the changes and explain why, here's the goals.

pk: suggests important to elevate the purpose

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to address goal concerns

js: not necessarily my opinion; but historically we've had lots of goals--possibly 4 goals docs most of which are multiple-page
... concerned it might push the timeframe back
... because this group as well as agwg agreed
... making it better for pwd we probably all agree; beyond is hard

mc: agree that ed notes should generally be instructions to reader about things we're still working on

<Wilco_> +1

mc: so tend to agree should phps not be ed note
... but also want to respect chair views ...

pk: other comments before hour ...
... in eval scope note
... final sentence great!
... trouble with first sentence; it's reverse from what we were saying
... any look one does is out of date when you finish doing it in a highly dynamic situation

ca: asks whether we can take up via wbs and again tuesday

pk: notes time limit on tuesday call

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to suggest email wordsmithing

<Rachael> +1 to wordsmithing email. Hopefully by meeting we can have an alternate ready for review

mc: suggests trying email thread to resolve?

pk: will start with survey and we can try email

<Chuck> +1 to dreaded email wordsmithing

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Default Present: jeanne, Todd, Rachael, Chuck, Grady_Thompson, MichaelC, Francis_Storr, sajkaj, CharlesHall, shari, Yakim, Wilco_, KimD
Present: jeanne Todd Rachael Chuck Grady_Thompson MichaelC Francis_Storr sajkaj CharlesHall shari Yakim Wilco_ KimD PeterKorn sarahhorton caryn-pagel kirkwood
Regrets: David F shawn L Makoto U Angela H
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