<scribe> scribe:ChrisLoiselle

Methods from Visual Contrast

<Chuck> Jeanne: Update from visual contrast

<Chuck> chris: Met last week (bruce and I), and had discussions with Jeanne and Andy on the status update of pushing everything from where Andy has it to a shared repo.

<Chuck> chris: Within github or word document files, with current method (font size & weight), to calculate ratio. From there it's more on the administrative side of things to get content from Andy to Jeanne for a publishable state.

<Chuck> chris: Method is set, there are conversations about removing default method. Don't know if we want to speak to that or include as a secondary method. That's currently what we are working on.

<Chuck> chris: Other teams provided methods and there's a link in the email that went out earlier. We haven't provided that yet, we are waiting on most up to date version from Andy to push.

<Chuck> Jeanne: Thanks Chris. Michael, can you look and see if there's a pull request from Andy?

<Chuck> michaelc: In silver repository?

<Chuck> Jeanne: Yes, Andy said he'd use github, and I haven't seen anything from him.

<Chuck> Chris: I replied to the thread this morning to make sure that he's aware that's the case.

<Chuck> michaelc: No open pull requests, no branches that looks like he was working on.

<Chuck> bruce: Andy prefers github.

<Chuck> michaelc: He could be doing it in his own repository. It would be better to migrate to silver repository.

<Chuck> Chris: I believe that is what is currently happening.

<Chuck> michaelc: Direct Andy to contact me, I'll steer him in the right direction.

<Chuck> jeanne: Any q for chris?

Methods from Clear Language

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p-FayvZYonpDIlojblFSofi_KzjNdY5SrBOKauvV0u8/edit

Jan: We are working with COGA and trying to fit the design models and patterns with the functional outcomes

Jeanne: The design from Michael W. allowed for long string of functional outcomes which will be helpful.

<CharlesHall> Content Usable informed some of the Master Functional Needs

Jeanne: Do you need help on adjectival rating and scoring?

Jan: We will be meeting on that this week. That may be helpful
... We welcome feedback on functional outcomes.

Jeanne: We need to be able to include tests that includes COGA.

Methods from Content Structure (headings)

Jeanne: Talks to Jake's comments on headings methods and how we can include Jake's comments.

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ya8LB2YL0qRHdFEHIQoXG8rfaR8fdUpcO79ceMiGLQs/edit#heading=h.8n4zxytu0g0y

<Sheri_B-H> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ya8LB2YL0qRHdFEHIQoXG8rfaR8fdUpcO79ceMiGLQs/edit#

Sheri pastes in Methods for content structure link

Sheri: Talks to relevant headings, visual distinct headings, headings in HTML and ARIA

Jeanne: We did not go through visually distinct

Sheri: The main difference is sighted users vs. non sighted users. I.e. h1-h6 nested level helps screen readers. The font size helps sighted users.

Jeanne: We have a section calls "applies to" and this is where we are addressing Jake's comments around not having a copy of each method for each technology platform.

Sheri: I did include various platforms. I.e. HTML, plain text, Markdown, pdf, word processing document, ePub documents, and slideware

Which could apply to mobile as well.

<Lauriat> +1, I think we wanted to have methods above the level of today's techniques so we could do exactly this: describe a method that you can implement across many technologies.

Jake: I don't see a relationship between headings and applies to. I.e. JavaScript framework, wouldn't generate a heading within a framework.

What is the general structure of what determines the "applies to" criteria?

<CharlesHall> squirrel: whatever Jake just said, activated my Google Home.

Sheri: I wanted to make sure native mobile was included , to be sufficient to include those platforms as well.

Jake: We could talk to more specific traits in iOS or Android heading level detail.

Sheri: To keep it high level, perhaps we just state "native mobile"

Jake: I think we need to think about it a bit more in terms of wording for applies to regarding mobile / native mobile

<kirkwood> +1 to Jake

It is the way you create the heading in the application framework, iOS, specific way to create headings...same for Android. Otherwise it gets into do we list all OS etc.

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask if it'd help to remove the low-level code.

Shawn L: I think generic application is ok. I don't want to get into styling for CSS or at a granular level is necessary. Talk to high level aspects to low level text. Then it can apply to all technology that has headings.

I also want to talk to Applications, i.e. complementary sidebar or visually hidden headings. How would we cover that particular scenario under this method?

<CharlesHall> sorry. have to drop for a conflict.

<Lauriat> In particular, I think visually distinct sections which have visually hidden headings seems like a bit of a hack / anti-pattern.

Jake: I think there are other ways of having content being shown...sidebar, etc. There are also other elements that are like headings, captions for tables , landmarks etc. structure of a page.

Jeanne: We could use help with this.

Shawn L: For this being included in the AGWG presentation, perhaps we present this later on as an editor's note regarding other structures

<Zakim> sajkaj, you wanted to ask whether an indicative listing might help? rather than an exhaustive one?

Janina: I think "such as" examples would work for a short list of what it applies to , less is more

Sheri: agreed.

Janina: We need the whole stack to deliver functionality. Features for the user.

<Lauriat> +1 to Janina wth bells on

<KimD> +100 to being inclusive to "whole stack"!

Sheri: I can add in some examples into the methods.

Jake: I would like to comment more once I go through discovery. I may do this next week and add next week as we move forward.

<Zakim> sarahhorton, you wanted to ask about the functional outcome phrasing

Sarah H: On functional outcome language , I wanted to point out my comments.

The functional outcomes are talked to differently in the documents.

Sometimes we are wording these as very technology focused. The functional outcome for relevant headings would be to organize content in logical blocks.

I wanted to get consensus on what a functional outcome is and how to articulate it as a group moving forward.

Jeanne: I don't think clear language functional outcomes have been rewritten yet.

Sarah H: I think solidifying the design is important

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gfYAiV2Z-FA_kEHYlLV32J8ClNEGPxRgSIohu3gUHEA/edit#heading=h.rbn6yq3f7i4b

Jeanne: Places link to how to write functional outcomes in IRC

talks to how need is met and how it benefits the user.

Sarah H: I'm available to look at this to align everything.

Jeanne: We need two from clear language to talk to in regard to what guidelines are turning into with AGWG. Where does the guideline concept fit?

We need another method written for clear language

Jake: Can you talk to the guideline aspect of not using guidelines?

Jeanne: We test and score by functional outcome. Guidelines are used to organized (used at a higher level) like contrast etc. I.e. things in common to everything.

<sarahhorton> I'm available to take on another method if needed

Josh: I updated a method for XR , just wanted to let everyone know and it could be helpful for methods writing moving forward.

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to test audio

Jeanne: Anything else on content structure?

Sarah H: If we figure out structure , we'd save time on producing the deliverables.

Jeanne: The structure may change again within next week.

Methods from Captioning in XR

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lUoy00PrdsJjsqfqv8T4U1KokDM9LqbEe2GMWOwsEM4/edit

<jeanne> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2020Aug/0050.html

Josh: Talks to his XR methods , Jeanne shares links.

Josh worked on XR Captioning and Reflow of Captioning. Jeanne invites Bruce to talk to the XR items.

BruceB: Current state of captioning and applying it into games, xr, metadata etc. is the main effort for future of addressing captions. Talks to captions on immersive environments.

<bruce_bailey> In an online “first-person shooter” game, players have the option to enable and customize captions. A popular option is to vertically shrink the default view-port, so as to fit two lines of real-time captioning text below the weapon and health bar. The captioning includes environmental cues and speech from NPC avatars of allies and foes

BruceB: To Josh's point on anti-aliasing, Andy also supports that this is a sort of anti-pattern and not a proponent of using anti-aliasing.

Jeanne: Talks to critical failures. Critical failures can't pass.
... Talks to COGA and accumulation of failures would lead to a critical failure. I.e. video or media that does not have captions is a critical failure.

Chuck: On non-interference and not on path, was that covered? Jeanne: I'll look at the template

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KP6A9TmSkhgHvsTxu4FFGC9duzHKU-OBM_tcULC5Mew/edit#heading=h.ggpebexznlm4

Jeanne: Places template link in IRC

Josh: I was speaking to anti-aliasing on using as a benefit.

Josh, let me know if that works , sorry for confusion.

Hardware anti-aliasing is superior and wanted to raise that issue.

<jeanne> These may be items that will stop a user from being able to complete the task if it exists anywhere on the page (examples: flashing, keyboard trap, audio with no pause)

<jeanne> These may be an error that when located within a process means the process cannot be completed (example: submit button not in tab order)

<jeanne> These may be errors that when aggregated within a view or across a process cause failure (example: a large amount of confusing, ambiguous language)

<jeanne> The above are conditions for critical failure

BruceB: what happens with videos that are supplementary? Losing data , but not critical to path, i.e. shopping for something etc. How do we quantify that in our scoring?

<bruce_bailey> exit

This is scribe.perl Revision of Date 
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Present: jeanne Chuck bruce_bailey sarahhorton joconnor MichaelC ChrisLoiselle sajkaj Francis_Storr CharlesHall KimD Caryn-Pagel Jan Fazio_ Lauriat Makoto Todd Sheri_B-H JakeAbma kirkwood
Found Scribe: ChrisLoiselle
Inferring ScribeNick: ChrisLoiselle

WARNING: No date found!  Assuming today.  (Hint: Specify
the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.)
Or specify the date like this:
<dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002

People with action items: 

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.


WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain 
a link to the original IRC log.)