Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference

14 Aug 2020


Shawn, Vicki, Howard, Daniel, Hidde, Laura, Mark, Sharron, Estella
Kevin, Shadi, KrisAnne, Brent


<eoncins> Estella present +

<shawn> scribe: Sharron

COGA "Content Usable" - target audience?

<scribe> Scribe: Sharron

<scribe> Chair: Shawn

Shawn: Thanks to all have put comments in Content Usable doc for the COGA TF. We are trying to consolidate comments and Vicki has bravely agreed to aggregate comments and send only one doc to them.

Target audience

Shawn: Estella has brought up the question of who is the audience for this material.

Estalla: When did ny review I understtod in a broad sense that the sudience was developers and designers. With that assumption, I did not see how the content could be applied into their working routine. To me, the document is missing the clear direction for how to apply these concepts within a work process.
... it seems to be missing the target, if that is the in fact the target audience.

Shawn: Any feedback from your team Laura?

Laura: Not yet, but I have to say we don't really even have a process to integrate accessibility into our process. People are saying the right things about accessibility, but we still have resource issues.I do think the detail was valuable and that the implementation process is implied and that many different roles coould find pieces that they could use for different roles.
... there are users stoires and more all in one place.

<shawn> https://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-supporting-documents-redesign/2020-07-15-coga.html

Shawn: Great thanks for that perspective. Remember that Hidde is working on interface design and that the COGA design pattern work will also be considered for a new wrapper.
... and Hidde's work is defintely targeted to designers and developers.
... There is information in this document about UX testing, business case, and other roles beyond dev and design. How is that falling with y'all?

<shawn> Sharron: think there is a tremendous amount of infomratoin in this document that is found elsewhere. not sure that business case just for cognitive info is compelling. little concern with dusplicating information.

<shawn> ... we struggle with this overall - people say "I never know where to find stuff" - "WAI information is all over the place."

<shawn> ... also William tersification. So important these days.

<shawn> ... appreciate Laura's perspective. Yet think so many people will not read all this.

<shawn> ... in severl sections - need to point to other WAI information.

<shawn> ... iof we're going to make WAI information @@ , we need to @@

Laura: I am OK with linking off. This is not a standard, but this is an excellent explanation fo why the standard exisits. As long as the explanation is clear, I am Ok with it being consistent with other WAI doc.

Howard: I think it is fine to mention things like the Business case, user stories. We have done a lot of work on those and no need to dulpicate what has been done. A sentence or tow and a link.

Estella: I agree with this direction in the sense that there is no need to duplicate existing information and it is a very informative document. It is making a case for understanding and having sympathy for the issue rather than solving the issues.

Shawn: In the past we have done so much work on avoiding duplication for reasons of consistency, findability, and maintneance.

Suggestion for COGAlanding page

Shawn: For example, when we did the Older Users work several years ago, we had a Landing Page that then links out to other supporting doc. As well, there is a communiunty group dedicated to Online Learning that has taken that apporach. There was a bit of disconnect between language and approach that AcessLearn and EO used. So we worked together to tweek the resource to include their perspective

and modified the content.

<shawn> Sharron: example of Access Learn is good. I twas collaborative with Access Learn CG and EOWG working together to create the landing page, and some tweaks to the existing EOWG documents

<shawn> ... was thinking that we might do that with COGA -- that we might tweak the existing conent to be more relevant to the points they want to make

Daniel: I agree with these comments. It seems that we should also be aware that this document was created because the new SCs need to be taken seriously and that we would not want them to feel we are diminishing all the work they have done.

Shawn: Agree, but thinking aboout the big picture and the fact that there is more attention on COGA and it was convenient to have the info in one place, what is the feeling of having a COGA landing page that leads to other docs?

Laura: I am for it if only to explain the diffences and competing interests in disability accomodation. Learning disabilities in particular have different issues and what helps one kind of disability may actually be detrimental to another. Having that explained would be useful.

Mark: I think the landing page is a very good idea and may be open to doing it for differnt disabilities.

Daniel: I agree but even though there are unique requirements for this disability group, that could be said for others as well. So it may open the door ro make specific landing pages or branches to other disability groups as well.

Estella: I am also agreeing with laura and Daniel. COGA is relatively new and needs perhaps more explanation but there are novel aspects with other disabilites as well and this may open tht door.

Shawn: There seems to be support - are there concerns with creating a COGA landing page?

Howard: As long as it does not seem to be an alternate page. it could get away from the universal design approach. These are the resources that support this disability but why is it separate?

Shawn: You don't want us to encourage people to focus on only on disability?

Howard: Well I want to avoid the interpretation that we are creating a separate way toa ddrss it - like an :accessible" version of a page.

Laura: Yes to be sure we are interpreting these addiitonal recommendations that are not completely part of the actual standard in a way that does not interfere with general concpets of universal desing for all.

Howard: Then what are we doing ourselves to the rest of the site to make it more usable according to these recommendations? We should look at taking actions through out the site.

<shawn> For example - Older Users landing page https://www.w3.org/WAI/older-users/

Shawn: We have added summaries and plain laguage but yes, there is probably more we can do.
... Landing page would be along the lines of a few words related to user testing, linked to existing resources; a few words about biz case, link to that; design consideration,link to COGA design patterns, etc. What do others think?

Howard: Seeing this now, it seems like my concerns are quieted, this seems more like a resource list, overview. Seems fine.

Laura: I agree with that.

<Vicki> +1

Shawn: So do we want to suggest that we work together to develop an overview page?

<shawn> +1

Sharron: +1

<eoncins_> +1

<Laura> +1

<Howard> +1

Potential sections to include in overview

Shawn: So there is an Appendix in this doc related to the Business Case, would we ask them to integrate into general Biz Case? Would we ask the info about integraton into Plannign and Managing? And be open to adding to the existing document stronger language about COGA.
... either to the overview page and as a tweek to our existing resources.

Laura: I do like the idea of not duplicating information but I think we do not want to lose the emphasis on cognitive issues so tweeking will be needed on both sides.

Shawn: I am so interested in input related to Involving Users. When we wrote this we were also developing the evaluation resources, so we wrote the improtance of early involvement. We thought about our role, we are not meant to be teaching general usability teaching and struggled with our appropriate role.
... I welcome people' thoughts since here they go into detailed info about usability testing.

Estella: I don't know especially in the focus groups and usability section, there is missing the interaction with users and how it is appropriate to do so. When you work with vulnerable groups there is a long process to be sure researchers are properly prepared and this is not really mentioned.

Shawn: In previous docs we determined that kind of guidance was ouot of scope.
... it is a huge challenge, it could be a whole book. So we need to decide how it fits within WAI and how EO can guide this. Kevin pointed ouot that they have some information but don't cover all aspects. The middle ground may be the most problematice. Should maybe only kmake geenral reference and point elsewhere o provide all the detail.

Estella: But informed consentt is need for any user, not only those with disabilities. But preserving the rights of vulnerable groups requires particular care and there is not sufficient guidance here for that.

Shawn: Is that an EO role and if so, where would it fit?

<shawn> cak d

Daniel: It seems so to me, our resources address so many aspects, why not this one? I see Estella's point that adding 2 or 3 sentences in addiiton to what is here would be wise. Leaving the door open to research how to do this well.
... This clearly took a lot of thought and work and we do not want to be dismissive of that.

Laura: I completely agree

<eoncins_> Absolutely agree also

Shawn: My feeling however is that if it is all in a separate TR document, it will get less consideration and attention. But if integrated into widely used documents, it will get more use.

<shawn> Sharron: move the information where it will get more visibility.

Shawn: by moving it will get more attention

<shawn> ... elevate the good work where it will be seen, used, and effective -- rather than hide in a TR

Sharron: @@@

Laura: That the document has to married into the WAI guidance documents in way that coordinates standards to implementation to increase findability without duplicating and contradiciting each other.

Howard: Yes, the document was very clear and readable but so long.

Shawn: Any other topics we want to discuss now?

Work for this week

Shawn: This survey closes Monday, will be consolidated and given to COGA as one set of comments from EO
... the video survey was originally meant to close on Tuesday and if it needs to be extended, please say so now. Can you look at when you will be able to complete it?

<Laura> I've started it. I can try to get it done or mostly done by Tuesday.

<Howard> Thursday sounds good.

<markpalmer> Not started yet. Thurs or Fri for me.

<shawn> Sharron would like until Thursday.

Sharron: Thursday would be good for me

Daniel: Friday

<Laura> Thurs or Friday works better for me too.

<eoncins_> Already done

<dmontalvo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/developers-curricula-modules-456/

Curricula Update

Daniel: Here is link to the survey. Open until Thursday mainly for modules 4,5,6 but open to accept comments from previous as well.
... mainly for TF participants but anyone can respnd, there is guidance beyond WCAG. Is it still fine with the group that guidance of that kind is included as long as we make the distinction clear?
... there will be a subsequent curricula for designers, etc want to be sure that people understand the overlap between roles. Easily easy to misinterprt that requirements are siloed but we want to be sure it is clear that awareness is needed among and between roles.
... survey closes on Thursday 20 Aug. Mainly targeted to TF but all are welcome to comment.

Shawn: One of the things happening behind the scenes, they are meeting and working hoard on that. Any additional comments?

<eoncins_> * Daniel is doing a great job!

Supporting materials design

Hidde: Thansk for the feedback from last week. Had long conversation with Michael Coope of AGWG and have added the distinction and explanation of difference between Technquies and sufficientcies. I learned a lot especially that teh Understand docs are a driver of sufficienty.
... the complexity of the concepts makes it harder to create a simplfied interface. Circumstances contribute to sufficienty as well.
... Since the SCs are sometime long, it is interuppting the simplfication of the presentation. Am using expand/collapse for the long, listed SCs
... Still very much in progress, about to become a father so will be away for a bit.

Shawn: Did you abandon the idea of a popup in context?

Hidde: Not abandoned just did not get to it.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to suggest open by default?

Shawn: I would find that useful as a reader of complex terms having them in context.
... Open by default?

Sharron -1

<Laura> +1 to closed

Sharron: My own preference is closed by default

Shawn: Any other comments?

WCAG 2.2 working draft

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/new-in-22/

Shawn: I have an What's New in WCAG 2.2 working draft

<hdv> +1 to Sharon! Had many people ask for this kind of thing

Laura: I think this is so great to get it our ASAP so people know what is coming.

Sharron: Such good work Shawn, this helps people understand in a flash

Laura: A collegue and I presented last week and I did not know about this. Is it OK to forward to that group?

Shawn: Yes it has been published and tweeted out

Daniel: This is clarity that is shared eagerly with the group. You make references to the persona quotes and link to them along with plans to update supporting documents.
... maybe that info should go somewhere else?


Shawn: Thanks all, best wishes Hidde

Hidde: I have a three year old so this will be good.

Laura: My boys are just 3 years apart , it is good

Mark: 2-3 years between my 3 kids

All: Best wishes, joy!!

Shawn: Thanks all!

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

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Default Present: Shawn, Vicki, Howard, Daniel, Hidde, Laura, Mark, Sharron, Estella
Present: Shawn Vicki Howard Daniel Hidde Laura Mark Sharron Estella
Regrets: Kevin Shadi KrisAnne Brent
Found Scribe: Sharron
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Found Scribe: Sharron
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Found Date: 14 Aug 2020
People with action items: 

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