- Minutes -

Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

24 Apr 2020


Shawn, Lewis, Shadi, Brent, Sharron, Laura, KrisAnne, Estella, Daniel, Hidde, Helen, Mark, Howard, Sylvie


ATAG Report Tool Open Issues

Brent: We sent the issues out on Wednesday, hoping for some pre-conference review.

Hidde: The feedback I have received was helpful, thanks. Some were bugs and I will just continue to work on fixing them, several have a clear path to resolve, but I picked a couple to discuss.
... the first is the question Issue #59 says the 'Name of Your Evalution' is not useful. Brent suggsted that we change to Basic Information aligned with the Accessibility Statement Generator. What do people think?

Shadi: I like that as a concept but in the nav bar it may be a bit long.

Hidde: I like that it is the same as what is in the Acceessibility Statement.

<mpalmer> +1 to Basic Info

Howard: I like Basic Info

Helen: or 'Details'?

<Sylvie> +1 to basic information

Helen: Details, one word

<Howard> maybe "eval info" or "basic info" for navigation and expanded in the heading

Daniel:Basics to keep it short in the nav and then Basic Information on the page itself

Hidde:I will try it out
...seems Basic Information takes the same amount of space as Your Evaluation

Shawn: ...'About the Evaluation' could be the heading for the page and since there are only 4 fields, no need for more headings
... (just a brainstorm)

Howard: Basic Info in the nav or Basic Information as the page header. Or Eval Info / Evaluation Information

Hidde:Here's mockup with basic information: https://atag-report-tool-git-basic-info.hdv.now.sh

Hidde: There is also more about about who is the evaluator and where do they work, so it is about more than just the evaluation

Shadi: I like Basic Info/Information. Also like the idea of Report. Then last page could then be Report Preview. Could be a good approach.

<krisannekinney> +1 to Basic Information

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say actually we're thinking about "evaluation", but from end-user perspective, it's about the "report" -- more brainstorms: Report Information, About this

Sharron: +1 to report use

<Daniel> +1 to "About this Report"report

Helen: Are we over complicating it? Could just keep it simple.

Hidde: What do you suggest?

Helen: Information or Details because if you start thinking about what people might understand, you have the risk of over-explaining and guessing wrong about what they understand. It is nice to be consistent with the Statement Generator but sometimes change is good.

Shadi: I too like short things. My concern is that 'details' sometimes has a negative connotation. I agree with Sylvie's point that too short has the risk of confusion.

Brent:I kind of agree that the simple is more straightforward. So I would tend toward that.

Shawn:There is what people are calling menu and there is a nav across the top - are those the same thing? There is also the page name to consider. Could have a longer page name that is shortened in the nav

Howard: Report Basics is fine but Basic Information also looks fine in the nav

Shawn: At this week's planning call we knew that there would be some brainstorming and sharing of different perspectives. So if you are impatient with the brainstorming process, please don't feel obligated to participate.
... The next topics are like this as well.

Hidde: So we have kept it simple on the one hand and then held in mind the need for clarity on the other.

KrisAnne: We've got a ton of real estate in the nav. Why can't we have long names?

Hidde: Thinking about smaller screens

KrisAnne: I can't really imagine somone going through the Tool from their phone so the smallest would be a tablet. Also, are there two phases?

Hidde: No, but there is a downloadable function.

<shadi> +1 to krisannekinney

KrisAnne: If you put "Preview Report" they may wonder where is the final one?

<shawn> +1 to krisanne

<Howard> +1 to Krisanne also

KrisAnne: I like Basic Information. could it stack?

<shawn> -1 to "Basic Information"

All: general agreement with retraction of "Preview" for Report

Howard: Agree with point that there is plenty of room for Basic Information

<shadi> +1 to most primary audience will not be using this tool on a moble device

Laura: I notice that when screen is reduced, Report gets cut off, it is not wrapping.

Shawn: But "Basic Information" doesn't really mean anything. Not stong opposition but I'm sure we could come up with something better if we had more patience with brainstorming.

Shadi: Assuming that it is clear that this is a progression, Basic Infomation will have meaning in that context. Can we work within that context?

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say "start" is not the start -- it's about the Tool

Shadi: Another issue on GitHub is to improve the visual presentation to make more clear there is a step or progress element that is not yet visually emphasized.

Shawn: Wonder if we have shared a lot of ideas and since nothing has yet fallen in place, maybe we sit with it and think about it. Move on and maybe clarity will come from subsequent discussion

<shawn> [ ABout this Tool, About this Report ]

Sylvie: How about calling that section "Before Starting"

Hidde:One suggestion was Overview' instead of 'Start' and I will add your suggestion too Sylvie for consideration. Will consider as an option
... also the idea that some might put in basic info at the end.

<shadi> +1 to brent

<lewis> +1 to Brent

<hdv> +1

<shawn> [ /me notes it's "Start" in WCAG-EM Report Tool, which doesn't make sense :-/ ]

Shadi: Overview ->Start -> Report, is that your suggestion?

<Laura> +1 to Brent's "Overview" and "Start Report"

Howard: I would suggest something similar. Overview or Intro a first tab and Start as second, then the A1, etc to Report.

<shawn> +1 to Overview -> Start -> A.1.... -> Report

<shawn> +1 to Overview -> Start -> A.1.... -> Report -- and -- not extra box on the left

Helen: I still don't like the designation Start. Maybe Overview then Details since it does not imply a sequence, you can go back and forth which people are likely to do. I see all the points but I just think that if you don't have to do it in a specific sequence, 'Start' is not quite right

Daniel: You would conclude that Start is the place to begin but even though you can move around, it is the start of the evaluation. I strongly support Overview as the first tab.

Shawn: +1 for Overview->Start->numbers...->Report. Also, no box on the left.

Hidde: That is another issue to discuss

Shawn: It is all related

Brent: OK we will move on and see how further discussion will influence this.

Should all fields from your evaluation always show up?

<brent> Issue #71: https://github.com/w3c/wai-atag-report-tool/issues/71

<hdv> github: https://github.com/w3c/wai-atag-report-tool/issues/71

Hidde: This is related to the fact that you can fill in all the fields and at this time, we hide blank fields in the report preview but display them as blank in the JSON exports. The question is do we want to continue to hide or display as blank?

Brent: If you type within the boxes, you will start to see it populated. It only shows the name of the field if you have put data in a box. Otherwise it does not display at all.
... The tool name should be required but the others maybe it does not matter. Would love to hear other comments.

Hidde: The reason it may not need to be required is that when you have numberous steps in a complex series, there could be validation problems for an input they have never seen.

Shawn: Tool name is the minimum but others not so much. There could be a message saying Tool Name missing or something that is not an error message that prevents validation.

Hidde: Unnamed Tool?

Brent: I agree

Shadi: Want to clarify that there are two types - one is the page which is actually a preview. Then there is a report to get as a download.

<shawn> +1 to changing "Name" to "Tool" or "Tool Name"

Shadi: I agree with what Brent said where I cannot imagine anyone doing a report without a name. But we don't want validation to be an issue either. So in the displayed report, there should be Name: No name or something. I feel mildly since it is a preview you should provide all the fields and let people know that there was an option to put information there in case they missed it.

<Hidde> maybe: “n/a” could be displayed for values that are not filled in?

Shadi: we don't want to seem like there is pressure to fill out optional fields but we may want to let them know that was a possibility to input that info by displaying it as empty.

Daniel: I agree, the message can be crafted to moderate the amount of pressure people feel when it is blank. For example: Tell people Untitled vs saying Tool name missing.

Brent: It seems you must indicate that the name of the tool is missing. Saying that the field should be displayed in the preview, does that contradict the fact that it is meant to be a preview of exactly what the report will show?

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say +1 to SAZ that preview report has the fields without data (then I guess want edit button there?), dowbloaded report has just the Tool Name. (and "n/a" is

Laura: I think that clear form development is tricky but I would always err on the side of requiring a name for the tool. It was confusing, at first I put my own name it is so that must be addressed. Leave notification of it in the preview and the download when it is missing

<shadi> +1 to laura

<Howard> +1 "Name" confused me also - I put my own name instead of the tool at first

Shawn: Could get started within the tool and finish later, in that case it would be good to have the fields show up blank. But the tool name should have a prompting message and the others would show up as a blank field.

Hidde: I heard "not provided" think I will use that and in fact use it for all of the empty fields.
... could also have an edit link in the preview

Shawn: agree with probably "Edit" button

Brent: The field name should be Name of Tool

Shadi: Maybe shy away from using the term preview

<Helen> +q

Shadi: Maybe want to really push the provision of Tool Name when it is not given.

Helen: Could just use "View"

<shawn> +1 for KISS "Report" :-)

Discussion of the evaluation box

Hidde: Appearing at the top left of the page, it was discussed in a previous comments, there was a bit of controversy since many people liked it but some did not. Want to resolve based on comments.

Shadi: I have to use pretty broad configuration in order to get it to appear anywhere other than the top. Maybe right hand side display rather than the prominence of having it at the very top.

Helen: With the status function, I like it. I do understand the issue of prominence. What about placing it immediately beneath the Indicator of where you are in the progression?

Hidde: Just beneath the "Steps" bar so it does not intrude
... There are tech considerations based on use of the WAI grid. Would putting it at the top give it more prominence than it has currently?

Sharron: Could you put it as a banner with the option of hide or collapse?

Howard: I kind of like the box and the orientation it gives you.I would be OK with a Hide feature - nice compromise.

Shadi: In addiiton to the option of the banner display, it appears more like an alert box, it is a bit intrusive. Styling in addiiton to placement need sto be considered. Especially on the first page, it is confusing.
... Once you click through your attention is pulled to a notice that is counter-intuitive. It has a function of moving people away from reading the page.

<brent> +1 to Shadi's comment about being drawn away from the page too quickly.

Hidde: But there are two kinds of users, one may want to read the page, the other may want to just get to the function.

Shadi: Styling will influence how we use things so we should consider options. Hidde were you saying that if we don't display on the left, the content will be indented anyway to align with the WAI site?
... can we check that assumption since the Tools are somewhat differently displayed?

Hidde: Sure I am making choices within my understanding of how to use the WAI grid. That is how I have been thinking about it. Maybe a discussion outside this meeting.

Shawn: People will be working on this going from page to page, and the tool name will not need to be prominent at each point. Need to be available but not in your face each time.

<Helen> +1 to that one as easier to note the missed sections

Shawn: brainstorm the idea of integrating it into the top bar, under each A1 it would have X of Y etc. May be a way to understand within each section I can understand how many I have done. Possible ways to make the info available but not distracting.

<shadi> +1 to integrating that information directly in the progress/navigation bar

Helen: yes I like this idea, would be nice to know that - might also look at percentages.

<shawn> +1 for 51 out of 52... and then they're looking for which missed :-/

<shadi> +1 to helen

Hidde: I like this idea of x of y but not a big fan of including in the nav bar. Too complex

Helen: Within that box, may consider a jump to the uncompleted items

Hidde: For fewer than 5 or something

Howard: Same thought that if we can have a button in the box - show missing items and it can expand on demand, not displayed all the time.

<hdv> +1 to Howard's suggestion!

Laura: Link the number of missing items to a list on another page.

<shawn> +1 to Laura's braintrom of link rather button

<hdv> +1 to Laura's suggestion too, that also sounds like a good way to do it!

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say UI typical roadmap shows where I've been, what I've done, where I can go next, etc -- all in same control

Shawn: Interactive roadmaps are generally considered useful UI elements. Rather than thinking of it as nav, think of it as a guide to where they are and it is interactive.

Hidde: Replace the nav and the box with an interactive roadmap?

Shawn: brainstorm about how to meet user needs.

Brent: Thanks for all the input on these issues, just what we wanted and needed

Work for this Week

Brent: Task force is underway on the curricula and the WCAG Supporting Documents Redesign has posted a brief update on User Personas and Scenarios

KrisAnne: Hey Shadi, thanks for extending the opening of the Intro to Accessibility, several colleagues are veiwing it and mostly positive feedback.

Shawn: Please document the feedback if you have time and wanted you to know that some of the videos from the course we may put some exceprts on the WAI site.

KrisAnne: The fact of helping them to see things from another perspective has been tremendously helpful. These videos give a great view from another POV and it has been powerful and useful.

Brent: Great to hear, thanks KrisAnne. Finally, we will keep the Work for This Week current so please check in and we will see you next week. Thanks

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2020/04/29 04:03:47 $