Publishing Steering Commitee

<jyoshii> present＋

<Bill_Kasdorf> Thanks to George for standing guard on Zoom!!

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tzviya: First item on the agenda was an update on EPUBCheck milestones

Avneesh: There is obviously a COVID-19 crisis, it is creating challenges in the schedule
... many things are happening in parallel
... the main help is happening with the test suite, but there is not as much help available for the EPUBCheck work
... we are now extending the milestones to account for this
... the second milestone will end in July
... there will be an implementation of an HTML validator, we are experimenting with building EPUBCheck on the HTML validator, so it updates
... the plan is to complete phase 3 before the end of 2020
... but it might be completed earlier, we wanted to have flexibility

Cristina: I was just wondering if Gregorio might be useful to help with this work
... I need to ask him, and understand what is needed, but we might be able to provide help

Avneesh: Let's have a call with Gregorio

Cristina: We'll talk about this next week

EPUBCheck milestones update

<tzviya> zakem, next

BG Asia-friendly meetings, productivity

tzviya: The next agenda item was to discuss the PBG Asia-friendly time
... how can we engage people more, and the timing
... and could this model work in other parts of the publishing community
... and Ivan has experience with other groups that do this
... is the duplicated agenda the best approach

ivan: What they do in the DID WG, we have a weekly call
... the first 3 tuesdays we do it on a European/American time, and then the 4th is a US/Asia time
... the difference is that the Asia calls are the same as the other ones in that they have their own agenda
... they play the role as a normal call in the schedule, decisions made, notes taken
... there is no repeat of the agenda
... members need to read the minutes and comment, but it's the same for the Asian members on other weeks
... that has been going on since September, and it has been working well
... no major hiccups with the work

Ralph: First I want to apologise for the lack of warning on the agenda item
... Absolutely the Asia-friendly meeting is important
... we need more engagement
... What I want to discuss here is how do we make that call more valuable
... how to make best use of that time
... maybe this can be a brainstorming activity
... Ivan has shared another option from another group, maybe not as applicable to a BG meeting
... how do we make the two times work best for the BG meetings
... Daihei I'd like to hear from you about what is working

jeff: Thanks tzviya for raising this issue
... I'm less optimistic than Ivan that its working, I wanted to provide some feedback ew've gotten now that we are in more contact with members
... after several reports from Japanese members
... there is confusion and concern from the Japanese community
... we discussed EPUB 3 going to the rec track
... we've discussed backwards compatability
... we should have a discussion with them, and discuss the charter, so it reflects their priorities as well

Daihei: I'm not clear about why this agenda is being brought up today
... the duplication of the agenda, local and global interest is essential
... if there is a merit for a specific agenda
... that should be the preference of publishing at w3c
... I can discuss that with the Asia members
... I am not clear
... there's certainly a concern from the Japanese members
... about EPUB going to rec track
... they don't want to see anything jeopardizing the market
... since it is already working well
... we (BG chairs) could have discussed this and I am puzzled by this topic
... I would have liked a headsup
... about this topic so we could have provided feedback
... to the point of making the meeting time more friendly to all members, aside from Yoshii-san everyone prefers the time
... I can speak more in depth later but I would like to discuss why this agenda item is being discussed now

tzviya: I'll attempt to explain this
... first, I did not mean to make this topic sound accusatory
... apologies
... the idea was for us to brainstorm as a group, learn from the BG, not change BG
... I haven't attended a meeting in a while
... it's friendly to Japan but not necessarily the rest of Asia
... it can be challenging for everyone to participate
... we're trying to encourage participation
... we're now hearing thatp eople are frustrated with the EPUB3 charter, but we haven't seen anything recorded
... we've published the blog post
... if the community doesn't communicate with us
... we can't be responsive
... There might be a cultural element here
... we see participation from higher-level people, not the people who do day-to-day production
... we get comments from people with broad knowledge, but getting feedback can take time when it needs to be filtered down for feedback
... there might be a misperception that we need a "japanese" response
... we are all providing responses on our own, we hear rumours of a response, but it doesn't need to be unified

liisamk: The agendas aren't identical for the two meetings
... there's things on both agendas that are the same
... but that said the concern about EPUB and the charter we heard on the last call
... Daihei is trying to conduct the meeting in Japanese for Japanese members
... it lets people feel more open about commenting
... it doesn't help with the effort ot make it a more "Asia" specific meeting
... the concern that we heard is that people are concerned that things will be removed from EPUB
... backwards compatability is important
... but people are skeptical and we encouraged them to comment
... there's definitely a feeling of mistrust
... unless there's a statement from the W3C, I don't know how to get around it

Bill_Kasdorf: Another source of anxiety, is that one of the current deliverables of the PWG is EPUB4, and this other working group has a different focus

Ralph: I've been nodding vigorously to Daihei's comments, but not visible in IRC
... Daihei I'm happy that the meeting has been useful for Japanese publishers
... Liisa has shared the challenges of language barriers
... if there are questions or comments from those of us that don't speak Japanese
... we can figure somethingo ut
... how can non-Japanese speakers help address these concerns
... we probably put Daihei in an uncomfortable position by asking him to convey all the thoguhts
... if it would help for us to attend
... increase the bandwidth of the communication, and what we're proposing

Avneesh: Firstly, regarding the timing, these are summer times, if the call is at 14UTC it would work across all three
... as for the charter issue
... looking at the experience of EPUB development in IDPF, Japan and Korea have put a lot of effort to implement
... we need to take them seriously
... the communication going through the business group, it might be confusing.
... they might need a more technical discussion to get into the details
... a combined call between the technical people in the WG to meet with the BG to discuss this, open it clearly to technical people
... allay their fears

<jeff> +1 to Avneesh

<ivan> scribe+ mateus

<Ralph> scribe+

<Ralph> WendyR: I didnt' realize the technical topic was on the last Asia-time BG meeting; I would have been there had known that discussion was planned

<Ralph> ... I could have addressed some of the concerns

<mateus> wendyreid: i 100% agree with Avneesh, did not realize that this was a topic of discussion at the last Asia call... we did not realize these are the fears raised about the charter... i would like to allay those fears... if we need a special call or devote the next Asia call to discussing the charter, i'll make a point of attending... we can help with allaying those fears, and i can invite jeff xu to help translate the finer technical points

<liisamk> +1 to Wendy joining

Daihei: I am not sure if you guys are asking business group to discuss technical issues
... what I have been doing is soliciting japanese members and BG members in Asia, the Korean and Chinese people are not in the BG membership
... other than Japanese, Taiwan is the only other participating group
... in the Asia timezone, business needs to be brought into the publishing@w3c
... rather than detailed tech issues
... that's my understanding
... in terms of bringing ideas to the charter
... I've been communicating a lot to the members
... soliciting them to bring their ideas to github
... the truth is
... it is a little bit of a shame that the language is such a barrier
... the japanese market is huge, participating in conferences in English is a challenge
... as Liisa said, I also ask them to speak in Japense
... to make the meeting more productive
... for the global W3C publishing
... I can serve as translate
... at least for japanese to english
... using the right language helps to lift up their understand give them a chance to communicate
... I don't want there to be an impression that the Asia time zone call is exclusionary
... please let me know, I would like feedback
... If the main issue is that the Japanese members aren't participating, it's the language barrier, let me help to create a better situation

<Ralph> thanks, Daihei

George: Thanks Daihei, I think you're doing great
... 14UTC would be uncomfortable for the west coast people, but if there were only one meeting
... needing to have the meeting with a Japanese translation, if you have a professional there, we could look at having a longer meeting, and doing english and japanese translation
... another thought is when we do Europe and NA calls, and then do the Asia time, a lot happens in 2 weeks
... things change, and the agenda changes, if we stick with the two times
... have them on the same day
... cover the same agenda, unless there's a regional topic

Cristina: I was thinking, after what Avneesh said, the Japanese publishers are very keen and adopted EPUB3 quickly and widely
... I think we need to find a way for us as members
... in many ways more advanced in their adoption
... it's important for us to consider
... the language issue is a big one
... doesn't matter what time, the language issue remains

<Ralph> +1 to Cristina

Cristina: I do not know how many people from Japan are in the working group
... involvement with the working group is needed as well

<Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to ask if anyone has experience with any of the teleconference systems that do machine translation from Japanese to English

Ralph: +1 to Cristina
... there might be different solutions for the working group and business group
... Daihei, I heard you, conducting the meeting in Japanese is crucial
... it facilitates the discussions we need to have
... let's continue doing that
... what I wonder is if we can find ways to reduce the load on you personally
... sequential translation
... anything we can do to make your job easier
... chairing and translating is a challenge
... would it be plausible for me to join the conversation and check a machine translation

<Daihei> +1 to Ralph

liisamk: I do think that it would be helpful for Wendy and others to join the next call
... what is important for the community is to talk about the charter
... from the US, NA, and Europe, we wanted to have Laurent talk about the reading system side of things
... we are naturally heading in two directions for the meetings this month

<dauwhe> wendyreid: there is no WG right now

<dauwhe> ... we have no members from anywhere

<dauwhe> scribe+

<ivan> scribe+ dauwhe

<dauwhe> ... there is no group to reference

<dauwhe> ... we have no official charter

<dauwhe> ... so the only way to have the conversations is in the BG

<dauwhe> ... with people who might be participants in the WG

<dauwhe> ... or on GitHub, which is public

<dauwhe> ... we can't hit the WG membership since there is no such membership

Daihei: Let me ask Yoshii-san to speak

yoshii: I hope to support W3C's diversity, one of the APL members, from Kadokawa, to participate as a WG member, to bridge the Japanese and worldwide communities
... Kadokawa and Shuiesha will be joining as full members, they will be able to join the WG
... the EPUB WG at the APL will be able to join to help
... We have been solicting them to join the PBG and working groups to provide feedback

Daihei: I can provide translation, sequential translation will be great
... if that could be done for multiple languages
... it would be great for multiple groups
... the W3c is a global organization, supporting international languages, accessibility, that would be great, we'd get more participation

jeff: Thanks,
... Avneesh made a great suggestion, having a technical meeting between the proposed WG, and the BG
... are we doing it, who is coordination

liisamk: Sound like the agenda for the next call

tzviya: I think it would be beneficial to ask Daihei and Yoshii to invite more members

<Ralph> +1 to Daihei and Yoshii-san proposing the best forum for a technical discussion

tzviya: Wendy can ask Jeff X to come to help with translation
... having others there to help with translation is good
... we do need these comments
... Daihei you are doing a great job and it's excellent that you're able to conduct these meetings in Japanese, but we need the comments, they can be in Github in Japanese and we can translate

jeff: Length of charter review? But it looks like 6 week review period

tzviya: For our purposes, we need the feedback, even if discussed in the BG meeting

Daihei: You know Makoto, and Takami-san, they are both technical and fluent in English and Japanese, Jeff is welcome as well, and they can help too
... don't worry about that
... thanks to everyone for dedicating the time to the Japanese publishing industry
... Japanese market is very important for digital publishing
... and we are 100% dedicated to EPUB3
... Japanese publishing executives are keen on what is happening with EPUB
... I will bring all this information and feedback to everyone here

tzviya: Thanks everyone