Silver Task Force & Community Group

17 Mar 2020


jeanne, Lauriat, sajkaj, Chuck, CharlesHall, JF, KimD, kirkwood, 1, ChrisLoiselle, bruce_bailey
Shawn, jeanne
ChrisLoiselle, Chuck


<ChrisLoiselle> Scribe: ChrisLoiselle

Shawn L: We made progress on the agenda from our digital f2f.

<JF> agenda

<Chuck> +1 zoom

Tests for Headings

Thoughts from last week? On w3c calls

Recap from Virtual F2F

JF: Pacing of calls and length of calls were great.

Europe may have been left out due to late call time.

Shawn L: Other countries were able to attend, overall turn out.

Chuck: Agile effort all around.

Jeanne: Couple of action items, what are they for this week? Two related to content : Test for headings and how to structure it.

More of a structure conversation ...

JF: Test methods are important discussion, however my example was based on scoring component, i.e. compare and contrast.

Jeanne: Where we should think it should live is within the methods and testing section. If scoring is in conformance section , it may be overwhelming.

JF: Questioning larger statement of building of a guideline or a standard? Standard is used to measure to see if you have achieved a certain thing vs. a best practice.

Jeanne: We are chartered to write guidelines, wcag (guidelines)...we are making it part of success criteria.

Shawn L: You said what I was going to.

<jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/explainers/SectionHeading.html

Chuck: My interpretation is wcag wrote guidelines and someone else turned them into standards.

Jeanne: We are a technical documentation track.

<jeanne> W3C Technical Recommendation = standard

Jeanne: One is in the evaluate tab, in the how to. the other would be in the methods tab, which has never be written for headings

<bruce_bailey> +1 TR with "guidelines" in title is still a standard

Shawn and I talked to this yesterday on methods.

Shawn L: 1 method vs. many? With different granularity of use, such as what John offered for headings...if we are using aria, one method for aria. One method for HTML.

JF: What if one is mixed ?

<jeanne> Template for Method: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/methods/template.html

Shawn L: Methods would show one recommended way to do it, but doesn't mean you can't mix them together.

Tests should go in evaluate tab , you can effectively validate that you have the outcome you want.

JF: Functional outcome is appreciated.

Shawn L: How to we write methods for good , better , best ? Would be interaction dependent. Desktop web for example test would be different than mobile headings for functional outcomes.

<Zakim> sajkaj, you wanted to talk about div and section mashups

JF: I tried to visual vs. semantic structure . I wanted to talk to an example of all divs and using aria level notation so semantic it would be perfect for screen reader user but visually it would be different

sajkaj: html5 move away from h1 , h2 on mashups as run the risk of markup issues.

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say I think platform specific testable statements should go in the method. Functional outcomes that are not platform specific should be a part of the

JF: HTML5 hierarchy heading use was talked to but was not pursued by greater group

Jeanne: Testable statements should be on test tab, then list various tests that people could do , platform specific.

JF: This is what you must arrive at to meet the functional requirement.

Headings: There are two deliverables to look to on this subject of headings.

JF: Functional outcomes part of normative requirement?

Jeanne: Yes, that was a second agenda topic, test to the functional outcomes.
... Lets loop back to tests

<JF> Examples start here: http://john.foliot.ca/demos/HeadingsTestOne.html

<bruce_bailey> @JF please post link again

Shawn L: Looking at John's examples, at bottom of each one, there is a negative impact on functional requirements. My thinking is for each of these, we would write "how would you test" that headings meet functional requirements without vision?

<JF> @Bruce: http://john.foliot.ca/demos/HeadingsTestOne.html

<bruce_bailey> @JF thank you

These are the items you need to test to arrive at meeting heading structure requirements, I.e. Assistive Technology can use it to navigate . Also headings are visually represented to other users as well. Both AT and people can consume the data / element for headings.

JF: I agree with Shawn. Meeting one requirement usually impacts multiple functional outcomes. Using 7 functional outcomes , if a negative impact subtracts one functional outcome from the weighted score, we could use a multiplier of sorts.

<KimD> +1

Jeanne: Can we hold off on the multiplier conversation?

JF: We do need to get to that topic though.

Jeanne: We need content to see how this will all work.

Structurally this is one test, this is the functional benefit of this test.

Shawn L: This test would cover such and such Functional Requirements, from there , after test is organized, we will separately look at scoring. How does leaving functional outcome impact score?

Shawn to Jeanne: Where would we save this regarding tests?

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TgFWsggRNiUYU_N9GPCvU1KUhexiRWjYTelTKZPMAOE/edit

<CharlesHall> technology or method specific tests are children of methods. however, qualitative tests to validate human functional needs are parents of methods.

Shawn L: We can note in IRC and copy into document as well regarding updates.

Shawn L: For each functional requirement, usage without vision. How do we talk to this in test format? Lets not constrain to technology specific.

We may need to go back and re-write tests, bringing list a list of heading with a screen reader. Use case , but can combine around Assistive Tech supporting heading structure for users trying to use "X" software to achieve goal.

Jeanne: talks to Headings, Google Docs https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TgFWsggRNiUYU_N9GPCvU1KUhexiRWjYTelTKZPMAOE/edit+

Sorry..https: //docs.google.com/document/d/1TgFWsggRNiUYU_N9GPCvU1KUhexiRWjYTelTKZPMAOE/edit

Charles: Are we only using these 7 needs?

inter sectional needs is a need that we should explore.

we could have more than one need at a time?

<CharlesHall> thanks for confirming

Shawn L: Do we need to anything more in addition to meet the 7 core ? As we separately explore what the inter sectional needs would be. Could be a super set of these 7?

<Lauriat> 1. Using assistive technology, navigate the headings only

Shawn L: On headings, usage without vision, what can we add ?

<CharlesHall> recognizing headings while using assistive technology to navigate linear content

Using assistive technology, only the heading outline only to understand full context of page

Using headings to navigate page without using the quick dialog menus.

Creating a nested view of heading levels to understand the cognitive display of headings used on a page.

Shawn L: The user's overall goal is to navigate by heading to review page. Using AT is how you are doing that, this is how you would test with AT

Heading list would be generally useful , outside of how assistive technology uses headings.

Using semantics the correct way. Using a browser, or browser extension for ability to navigate page

JF: We are talking to technology first, then assistive technology , then the visual requirement, etc.

Jeanne: at time I wrote assistive technology vs. using a tool. Structure being logical could under understanding structure of content.

<sajkaj> ack

Shawn L: Consumption of content and understanding hierarchy. Recognizing headings by reading through linearly

Jeanne: To recognize headings while reading linear content.

Shawn L: Any other tests for tests without vision?

JF: you could navigate to headings, but you may not be able to navigate to a h2 if it is not present

Shawn L: Goes back to semantic structure.

Jeanne: This is technology platform neutral

sajkaj: Should the tool be able to fix skipped headings? How about expand or collapsing a h2 or h3 ?

Jeanne: Does an author need to build that ?

sjakaj: A mainstream tool may be beneficial to support collapse or expanding structure

sajkaj: A mainstream tool may be beneficial to support collapse or expanding structure

Shawn L: Usage with limited vision is talked to in Google Doc.

Jeanne: Being able to strip out heading levels would be beneficial
... Does navigate apply? On magnifying .

Shawn L: will annotate tests in google doc.verbal announcements and braille annotations.

for limited visionL Verbal and visual distinctions.

ChrisLoiselle to group: I will be right back, could someone scribe last couple of minutes? Sorry.

<Chuck> scribe: Chuck

Jeanne: Should we move on to the next one?

Shawn: Are there other tests that would apply to limited vision? We used same tests from previous... I don't think there are...

Janina: Custom styling covers a LOT of what low vision wants and doesn't often get.

Shawn: Agreed.

Jeanne: That's not something an author would do.

Shawn: They would need to support.

Charles: Visual distinction may not be enough... I've seen some smaller than body copy.
... US Web design system has that delima.

Jeanne: We should not limit to just font size.

Charles: Should be more granular. Smaller size means it's less meaningful than a heading.

Shawn: Use case Jeanne described... needs to be the same size so that I can use magnifier, and have a different indicator.
... At time.

<CharlesHall> loved this work today

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Present: jeanne Lauriat sajkaj Chuck CharlesHall JF KimD kirkwood 1 ChrisLoiselle bruce_bailey
Regrets: Makoto
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Found Scribe: Chuck
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Scribes: ChrisLoiselle, Chuck
ScribeNicks: ChrisLoiselle, Chuck

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People with action items: 

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