Print CSS Workshop at XML Prague

13 Feb 2020


Jirka, Rachel_Andrew, Steven, dauwhe, jan-martinek, liam, tgraham, Michael_Miller, Katharina_Udemadu, Andreas_Jung, Julie_Blanc
Rachel Andrew


<dauwhe> scribe+ dauwhe

<dauwhe> Rachel: hi, let's get started

<dauwhe> ... I'm recording the meeting

<dauwhe> ... and if you present you'll need two mics :)

<dauwhe> ... I'm a webdev and CSSWG member

<dauwhe> ... I represent Fronteers, a dutch group of web devs

<dauwhe> ... so I do webbish things

<dauwhe> ... but I've always been interested in CSS for print

<dauwhe> ... and using Prince

<dauwhe> ... and I hope to influence browsers

<dauwhe> ... so I'm going to talk about about CSSWG

<dauwhe> ... and then we'll do position papers

<dauwhe> ... CSSWG is in W3C

<dauwhe> ... world wide web consortium, 25 years old, develops standards to leave the web to its full potential

<dauwhe> ... w3c has companies that are members

<dauwhe> ... the browsers, etc.

<dauwhe> ... there are lots of companies using web tech

<dauwhe> ... the work of w3c is done by Working Groups (WG)

<dauwhe> ... there are loads of them

<dauwhe> ... and new groups are always being formed

<dauwhe> ... you can join a WG if your company is a w3c member

<dauwhe> ... and there are invited experts, if you're not part of member company but have expertise

<dauwhe> ... CSS meets 3-4 times per year, plus weekly telecons

<dauwhe> ... the F2Fs are very productive

<dauwhe> ... W3C specs have a life cycle... Editor's Drafts, Working Draft (WD), Candidate Rec (CR), formal REC

<dauwhe> ... CR is a call for implementation, need two implementations to get to REC

<dauwhe> ... it takes a long time

<dauwhe> ... I'm editor of multicol

<dauwhe> ... I had to take it from CR back to WD

<dauwhe> ... because it needed so many changes

<dauwhe> ... we don't want to make mistakes

<dauwhe> https://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/mistakes

<dauwhe> ... there's no funding to work on print stuff

<dauwhe> ... I'm editor of multicol and page floats

<dauwhe> ... I have no funding to work on page floats

<dauwhe> ... I'm a freelancer

<dauwhe> ... that slows down work on things that browsers aren't interested in

<dauwhe> ... Web browsers don't support paged media stuff

<dauwhe> ... people use headless chrome to print PDF

<dauwhe> ... and there are lots of problems

<dauwhe> ... how do you get pdf from web apps? I wrote an article

<dauwhe> https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2019/06/create-pdf-web-application/

<dauwhe> ... how to make progress?

<dauwhe> ... anyone can help. You don't have to be a member of the WG

<dauwhe> ... read and comment on spec issues

<dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues

<dauwhe> ... when we discuss things in meetings, the minutes do end up in the issues, so you can read in github

<dauwhe> ... tell us use cases!

<dauwhe> ... so often we get ideas that don't have use cases behind them

<dauwhe> ... you can contribute examples and diagrams

<dauwhe> ... and we have web platform tests

<dauwhe> ... it's not just for the web

<dauwhe> https://web-platform-tests.org/

<dauwhe> ... you can contribute tests

<dauwhe> ... they are needed to become rec

<dauwhe> ... raise bugs with browsers and print UAs

<dauwhe> ... if something's wrong in the spec, file a bug against the spec. If you see a bug in the implementation, file against the user agent

<dauwhe> ... funding people to work on specs, testing, and implementations

<dauwhe> ... Igalia is doing work on implementation in browsers

<dauwhe> ... they worked on grid with funding from bloomberg

<dauwhe> ... that needs to happen...

<dauwhe> ... you can't depend on hobbyists

<dauwhe> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/print-workshop-2020

Position Papers

Position Paper from Antenna House / Michael Miller

<dauwhe> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-print/2020JanMar/att-0017/Antenna_House_CSS_Position.pdf

Position Paper from Compart (Katharina Udemadu)

<dauwhe> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-print/2020JanMar/att-0018/Compart-CssPositionPaper.pdf

<dauwhe> RRSAgent: draft minutes

<dauwhe> RRSAgent: make logs public

Position Paper from Hachette (Dave Cramer) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-print/2020JanMar/att-0016/Prague-cramer.pdf

Position Paper from Andreas Jung

<dauwhe> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ty7q9tbn7rwoxo5/PrintCSSWorkshop%20-%20XML%20Prague%2020200.key.pdf?dl=0

<dauwhe> RRSAgent: draft minutes

Position Paper from Julie Blanc https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-print/2020JanMar/att-0019/position-paper-w3C-workshop.html

<dauwhe> paged.js GitHub repo: https://gitlab.pagedmedia.org/tools/pagedjs

<dauwhe> https://www.pagedjs.org/

Position paper with Liam Quin / Delightful Computing https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-print/2020JanMar/att-0020/2020-02-css-workshop.pdf

<dauwhe> RRSAgent: draft minutes

<dauwhe> <br type="coffee">


<scribe> scribe: liam

[Dave thanks the presenters]

Dave: It seems like we have a lot to talk about

Rather than wish lists I'd ilke to talk about process; ...

how can we work more effectively with the CSS WG

Do we need something like a new community group as a place of our own before bringing things to the CSS [WG]?

How do we get the resources we need?

E.g. for reporting bugs in browsers or PDF formatters

Let's talk about what you think should be done.

StevenPemberton: let's focus on getting a standard out first.

Rachel: when we talk about getting a standard out, we've got multiple specs

dauwhe: two biggest as css page and GCPM

Rachel: [scope of that work]

Steven: what do we want? identify needs to get there

If you do it right CR could be a shoe-in

Rachel: consider page floats; i started looking at impl'ns, and people are doing their own things

so it feels like a whole bunch of pople have done work and it's not in great shape

<dauwhe> liam: there was resistance to using non-browser user agents to prove implementations

dauwhe, getting GCPM to rec would be a tremendous success, regadrless of css page

There's now a generated content spec to take some of CGPM, along with cmyk colour

Q: I'm interested in the position of AntennaHouse wrt standards

Mike: I think if you look in our documentation & our history with FO, we have the standard, and then we wrote lots of extensions that ultimately became part of the standard ...

and we made the extensions compatible,

dauwhe: That's how things should work.

Rachel: there's a lot of people here with a lot to say, so i think that a community group, a way to discuss this, would be really cool

There's also people here who are in the CSS Working Group

i'm not seeing many issues being raised against my specs by the print community.

dauwhe: just having triage, is it a user agent bug or a spec problem, would help
... Liam, you mentioned a W3C CG

liam: don't want to create an impression of a hostile fork

Steven: [supports]

Rachel: there is a core of people very interested in what's going on today [at this workshop]

dauwhe: we can build our case and use the WG time more efficiently

Steven: do we have enough legs, will enough people contribute

tony: there's an existing print & page community group (i'm chair) it hasn't gone anywhere

you're welcome to subvert that

[others]: better to have CSS in the name

Rachel: when i've done research into printing from the browser, people get in touch with me, so having CSS in the name

Liam: Maybe call it paged media and print community group, to keep the option of paged media in browsers open

Rachel: [+1]

PeterLanars: if thre's this mailing list can't we all join it and submit our ideas?

dauwhe: for the W3C community group there's a process.

Rachel: having a community group is something i can mention in talks

PeterLamers: how do you define priorities?

[discussion of W3C process about tests & implementatins]

<Jirka> Liam: you can easily prioritize by looking for what there are tests and implementations

Rachel; there's some low-hanging fruit, and things Web devs will find useful, e.g. exclusions

There's a whole bunch of editorial patterns you can't do without them.

So there's going to be strong interest in that.

JulieBlanc: priority for us is to avoid having to hack stuff in browsers

want it easier to have a polyfull

Rachel: there's various ways we can prioritize things, we've seen some pain points today so get a list somewhere and start to choose what to tackle

dauwhe: [challenges and work of getting tests]

Steven: we need action items, right?

<scribe> ACTION: dauwhe will propose a community group

<scribe> ACTION: dauwhe will sent an email to the print-css mailing list to give its name

<scribe> ACTION: Jirka will sent to conference list

<Jirka> RRSAgent draft minutes

[discussion of footnotes, of mixed writing modes, as examples where more work is needed]

[ W3C Community Groups, both new and proposed - https://www.w3.org/community/]

julie: @page size bug is a major issue for us

dauwhe, Rachel: there's definitely people in Mozilla interested in this kind of stuff

Rachel: i'd really like formal documentation on some of the issues that have come up today

Julie: tiny space [hair space] not supported by browsers

dauwhe: we implment spacing with PrinceXML text-replace function
... right now i'm the only editor of CGPM, co-editor of generated content and the spec with initial caps, so i need help.

Writing layout specs is hard.

I don't have the knowledge [at the implementation level] and what's in the spec is inadequate

e.g. for footnotes

[Liam, Dave, Rachel - don't feel dumb or be intimidated, the CSS Working Group is very welcoming ]

dauwhe: EPUB has epubcheck, petered out, but we did a fundraising effort, took about a year and a half to get $150K when the entire publishing community uses this on a daily basis.

Mike: most publishers see specs as a cost centre; they don't recognize that without you everything comes to a stop.

Steven: phone calls?

Rachel: maybe not yet

<ankh> danimo: i volunteer to be a co-chair

<ankh> Rachel: i'll also volunteer to co-chair

* Zeioth has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

<ankh> Rachel: Any other business?

<ankh> Join the Community Group!

<ankh> I'm pleased this happened, this is really great. It was great to hear all the papers and feel the experience in this room in terms of moving this stuff foward.

<ankh> I'm happy to help people out, too, so do ask.

<ankh> Thank you everyone.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: dauwhe will propose a community group
[NEW] ACTION: dauwhe will sent an email to the print-css mailing list to give its name
[NEW] ACTION: Jirka will sent to conference list

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Present: Jirka Rachel_Andrew Steven dauwhe jan-martinek liam tgraham Michael_Miller Katharina_Udemadu Andreas_Jung Julie_Blanc
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People with action items: an dauwhe email jirka sent will

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