Silver Task Force & Community Group

28 Jan 2020


jeanne, janina, JF, KimD, Lauriat, Makoto, CharlesHall, AndyS, kirkwood
Bruce, Chuck
Shawn, jeanne
Lauriat, janina


<jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne

<jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/conformance-js-dec/guidelines/#clear-words

Survey for AGWG & Silver

<Lauriat> Scribe: Lauriat

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/94845/Silver-ED-21-01-2020/

<janina> scribe: janina

js: Worked on survey with Kim, please respond to it.
... Will, of course, post survey to the email list

<CharlesHall> this page is restricted from me

js: Also got input on the survey from Alastair; specifically to ask whether each question ready (or not) for wide review feedback
... Added intro, and pointer to rawgit
... As of this morning rawgit is up to date

sl: Q about granularity of questions ... Thought we were taking a less granular view for now
... Mainly because we haven't sufficiently edited to be questioning on specifics in the details

js: Would cut down on the questions; would take out 2?
... Maybe 3
... Can do post call today
... Will take all guidelines ready for review into one question

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask about granularity of questions.

ch: Purpose?

js: Primarily for AGWG; but also for us

ch: Can't access page

js: Hmm, thought it was world readable

makato: Same problem, can't access

sl: I can

<JF> I'm in

js: Asks people who are CG to check access

ch: Thought I wasn't CG only any longer

js: May be your login?

sl: But also Makato

js: OK ...
... Settings appear correct, will have to investigate further
... Would like to review guidelines questions here to see whether this is what we want to survey
... Are we guiding people toward providing the kind of feedback we need?
... Guideline A illustrates this aspect; guideline B that aspect; etc.
... But, if we can't see it ...
... It is due to be forwarded

Updates from subgroups

sl: Asks for updates since last week

js: Particularly interested in Alt-Text update

<Makoto> Alt-Text Guidance - Gaps Analysis by Todd https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TgOrTLdxBf_E_mDpoTYJOWn4-lfH_m1DdT8nc2u9PTM/edit?usp=sharing

Makato: Have an update ...

<KimD> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TgOrTLdxBf_E_mDpoTYJOWn4-lfH_m1DdT8nc2u9PTM/edit?usp=sharing

<Makoto> Template for Gap Analysis on SC 1.1.1 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13PJkFrDHRKCftuyfBKisvRcqHCGGBlmL6B68lr-nzWs/edit?ts=5e1de4ba#gid=0

Makato: There are 3 of us doing a gap analysis on sufficient techniques; there are 27 techniques
... Expect all results via spread sheet next Tuesday on this call

js: Are some done that you can point to and prioritize? So I can load html
... Looking for info that can go into the Explainer

<Makoto> Google doc on ALT text: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xI6ooDVxvNelVNJDSvbTJCvrJh92Df9wLXGyWs5f2-w/edit#

js: Could take techniques that are finished? Any?

Makato: Not yet

js: Would like to see some of this in FPWD; even if not all; some would be sufficient
... Even a few

Makato: OK

js: Turning to clear words; We met Monday and finished draft #1

<jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/conformance-js-dec/guidelines/explainers/ClearWords.html

js: Interjection: MC says survey fixed; please check
... There are things to note under the Design Tab

<Makoto> I can see the survey now. Thanks!

js: Want to use it as an example of how we might cross reference other guidelines
... Prior page we had example of cross reference other guideline; this one of how to cross reference another method
... All of what you need to write a modal

ch: Cross ref definitely an advantage; but we should be cautious of how it's organized to avoid redundancy or implied ownership

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask where the word "Method" appears on the template

ch: The whole thing should not be restated, should be an opportunity to link back and forth

js: Agreed and how we will do it

ch: Meanwhile, perhaps a different heading, e.g. Also Apply

jf: My only concern so far is that we have methods everywhere. Are we pulling them all together somewhere?
... Would love to see a master list

js: Thanks for the question; meant to discuss this ...
... So my thought is an accordian drop down to create a complete list. Is that tneable?

<kirkwood> That sounds good

sl: This suggests we need more design help.
... Also need usability testing before we setlle on an approach
... Also have some ideas, but don't want to make it about what helps me

jf: +1

<kirkwood> +1

jf: Across the top a tab that says All Methods -- maybe the final tab
... Would help cross referencing

sl: Also value to see whether we can pare down

ch: Reminds we don't wanted them stated in two places

sl: yes, but we need serious design help to get this right

jf: Experienced users will want the quick access approach

js: Which is my reason for Editor's Draft level vs. Explainer

<AndyS> Consider: Training wheels level and an expert level

js: OK, I'm off the hook--though may try if time permits

ch: Would like to see explanatory statements

js: Where?

ch: In the short term, until we have Glossary perhaps parenthetical to the labels?

js: That would add more text
... Perhaps the intro?
... Charles, please think about and let's return to the topic in email

ch: Right now the guideline is repeated on every tab, but no explanation of what the tab means
... Analagous to the whlo page needing an H1

<kirkwood> only suggestion is to call this “Clear Language Guidance”

js: Yes, forgot. Sorry!

<kirkwood> rather than just “Clear Language”

<Lauriat> Lauriat: Really, the "Clear Language" box should go above all of the tabs, rather than repeated in each one.

js: Returning to clear words -- We wrote the guideline!

<jeanne> Use clear language that readers easily understand.

js: I liked the process of writing the guideline last
... Made it easier to capture the essence of all that we had talked about

sl: Wondering about the readers; applies in blocks of text but also in labels and elsewhere

<kirkwood> +1 to Shaen

<kirkwood> Shawn

js: Target is blocks of text

sl: Would be good for the gl to specify that

jk: Should cover all lang on page and in interactions

<kirkwood> +1 but it also helps for translation

<Lauriat> Janina: This came up in COGA, it should be clear who benefits from this.

<Lauriat> +1 to kirkwood

<Makoto> +1 to kirkwood

jk: Also wonder about "easily"
... How do I measure ease?

ch: "easily" suggests a degree, so it's aa good question how achieved

js: We talked about that, there's no particular point that needs to be found
... It's a way to improve what you have, not a measure of a goal

jk: Don't disagree, but is at odds with gl as written

jf: Agrees. How do we know we achieved? How do we know?

<kirkwood> Often quoted in legal “The goal is to create a clear and concise document that is easily understood.” -Better legal Writing-American Bar Association

js: That's the rubric -- we provide three approaches

<JF> +1 to Janina

jk: Even American Bar hasdealt with this and has legal lang guidance

<CharlesHall> comparative would not apply for a new creation. easier than what?

Updates to the ED draft

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/94845/Silver-ED-21-01-2020/

ch: Ah, works now!
... Sees numbers behind some questions?

sl: Also find it confusing; would prefer extra numbers removed

js: Also, some of these questions could be in the FPWD as what we're seeking responses on

kd: Notes missing qualifier in #20 ...

js: Thanks! Please refresh!

sl: Requests closer look at survey and responses in email.

<jeanne> Jeanne: Updates to the Editor's Draft

<jeanne> ... https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/conformance-js-dec/guidelines/

<jeanne> ... Updates to Headings -- mostly changing Section Headings to Headings

<jeanne> ... Fixed broken links

<jeanne> ... Added breadcrumbs to Methods

<jeanne> ... updates to Clear Language

<jeanne> jeanne: Still to do...

<jeanne> ... Changing the name of the Visual Contrast Algorithm (with Andy's permission)

<jeanne> .. writing another method for CLear Language using code samples from Adrian Roselli

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.154 (CVS log)
$Date: 2020/01/28 15:36:17 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154  of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/27/27 techniques/
Present: jeanne janina JF KimD Lauriat Makoto CharlesHall AndyS kirkwood
Regrets: Bruce Chuck
Found Scribe: Lauriat
Found Scribe: janina
Inferring ScribeNick: janina
Scribes: Lauriat, janina

WARNING: No date found!  Assuming today.  (Hint: Specify
the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.)
Or specify the date like this:
<dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002

People with action items: 

WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain 
a link to the original IRC log.)

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]