Kathy: update on dragging?

Detlev: difficult to find implementations – most of what I found is not accessible in the sense that we would want to see with the new dragging success criteria
... search for accessible dragging, some offer keyboard support
... got some examples from our request – pasted the link to the doc page. One is a digital scratchpad, can activate with , move around with arrow keys. There is some degree of keyboard accessibility built in but nothing I can see that would support pointer alternatives
... the only thing I've sort of scene which would sort of meet single-point activation, code pen change the order of elements in a list, vertical list by dragging or by changing a number in front of that list item, so it jumps to the top if you go to the third or fourth one and put in one in that position. It's not very user-friendly experience
... I've seen another implementation but I can't find – when you focus appendixes or extensions of that item and you can click on those to move one position up, you have to repeat to move it all the way up

One app that lets you change the order of paragraphs is Editorial

Kathy: were talking about dragging alternative and particular any examples

Mark: I'll put a ping out on our slack to see if there's something we have like that that's available externally

Detlev: need to hunt down application where you can select items and move them across with little arrows

Kathy: there was an example under form stock a little while ago – Ill look

Detlev: I also put out a request on Twitter – didn't get anything back

Kathy: is there still questions on this one as to whether the working group is thinking about adding to 1.2?

Detlev: examples are important, could be designer pushback because this is tricky – making it keyboard accessible is one thing but adding extra alternative ways of moving things about is overhead – maybe it can be done elegantly, it might be a nice design exercise to do it in a way that feels natural and not like a burden
... the one good exampl requires a keyboard, although not a physical keyboard. It would probably qualify but is not the nicest example
... If we also find an implementation of moving up and down with triangles, and a good slider bar implementation – maybe increment buttons on either side or tap the track at any point, if that were the case that would meet dragging
... I'll look some more, hope that others will also find more

Marc: are you trying to find actual live working apps, or just sites that give examples

Detlev: both would be good to have
... keyboard examples are good, but that doesn't help with pointer alternatives
... I'm not sure if this would be universally welcome and help lots of people. I've had some discussion with people with motor impairments asking about the need for dragging and they said – three of them said with some pride oh yes we can do this. It's possible, but difficult. Swipe motions are difficult.

IOS 13 allows you to attach speech commands to any gestures

Might have to set things up custom, though

Detlev: if you couldn't specify in advance from where to where you want to drag – Maybe just works with more generalized
... web examples or app examples?

I just know of Examples, but there are a bunch of them with the triangles changing sort order

I can spend more time looking for more examples

Detlev: I can spend more time looking for more examples

Kathy: education – best answer putting things in order, also surveys implementations with drag-and-drop where you have to order thing – survey monkey or form stack or maybe one of the other form tools will have an example that will have an alternative that will work

Jennifer: we should look at the forms as well
... Google forms
... Gethub projects or Zenhub you can drag issues from one project to another, but as far as I know Zenhub doesn't have an alternative

Kathy: I thought IBM had an example – but that was probably a long time ago
... we're just looking for examples where you can drag it but you have an alternative

Marc: I'll look – keyboard examples, not sure keyboard plus alternative. Without having to tab tab tab being able to select from a menu of how I want something to move

Detlev: nice to have different approaches, pop-up menu for drop locations or arrow moving it to the next position. That could also be horizontal if you think of for silos as soon as you focus it you get the left or right arrow if there is something left or right to move it to and it would just jump to the next one to click that arrow

Kathy: why don't we just go and try and look at some of the examples – all go into survey monkey to see if I can find some there.
... let's take a few minutes to see if we can find

Jennifer: I found an alternative to dragging, putting it in Google doc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13QWLthBoEU6xuJQ4UrYOwuvJp0a42Z70JRjAsjtv1m4/edit

Jennifer: you can move issues in Zenhub selecting lets you open up a little modal that lets you move it
... the Zenhub help shows this

Kathy: you can also create a free demo, so we could set one up

Detlev: it's only valid for 14 days

you could set up long enough to make a video

Jennifer: the help has some screen shots
... the help URL is in the document

Kathy: they do have a free account, for public, so we could create an example we can point to
... or if we can find a public repository they've created

Detlev: that's a good starting point. If we have a couple more it's starting to look feasible

Kathy: here's another
... we should set up our own free account and then we can give the log into it

Detlev: it would be useful to have a short screen cast that shows what the issues are

Jennifer: if we had a WCAG example I could do something with that

Kathy: If you're okay with setting up a free personal one that would work

Jennifer: WCAG has github issues that are public– I might be able to create a zenhub with those issues to show this – I can do that

<scribe> ACTION: Jennifer to create Zenhub account that shows Alternative dragging example

<trackbot> Created ACTION-82 - Create zenhub account that shows alternative dragging example [on Jennifer Dailey - due 2020-01-23].

Kathy: Touch target examples –overall size is touch target plus spacing between targets
... if you have time this week to find examples that would be good, and then we can go from there. If people have examples we can look at now we can discuss those
... I'm gonna go look at the sizes on Amazon

Detlev: people have a way of doing a heading link, heading link small so it doesn't meet touch target by itself, user experience is good but the CSS match might point to a fail. If we have a hope that this can be tested automatically this might be a potential false positive

Kathy: spacing between and looking at the overall size. We do have an editor's note so we can get additional feedback.
... this one in particular we still have some challenges – important to get some overall feedback still

Detlev: agree, I think it's a good one. I think it's one where automated testing will give you good hints on possible failures but not rely on for failures

Kathy: research on how AI can do more on web analysis – Microsoft research – maybe today we can't do it but it might be possible to make it automatic later especially if we can expose more of that information
... if there is a site out there where we have good spacing between touch targets – we could list some of those examples. Out of all of the ones that we have this is more likely to change
... with that I think it's a good stopping point for today – happy that we were able to get examples for all of these now – thanks for the dragging example
... Zenhub free account that doesn't expire after 14 days is for public area– it's public, but we don't care about keeping it private

Jennifer: I'll just create a test repository

Kathy: see what you can do on that and report back next week and if you can't do it this way will figure out another way

Detlev: we should let them know we have examples

Kathy: I'll inform them

Detlev: if we have something by the next call would be useful

Marc: if you have trouble I can use one of our repositories
... But keyboard doesn't work on the Mac. If mouse clicking is fine, works. I wonder if Trello might be another example. I'll check it out

<scribe> ACTION: Kathy will send a note to Alister to let them know we have an example for dragging

<trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Will send a note to alister to let them know we have an example for dragging [on Kathleen Wahlbin - due 2020-01-23].

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