Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

07 Jan 2020


+, alastairc, JakeAbma, Fazio, Rachael, stevelee, Jennie, Detlev, Chuck, bruce_bailey, JustineP, MichaelC, JF, Brooks, kirkwood, jon_avila, Laura, david-macdonald, mbgower
Jennie, Laura



<alastairc> scribe: Jennie

<alastairc> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

Alastair: Please sign up to scribe.

Reminder to rejoin group

Alastair: Because we have rechartered, everyone needs to rejoin the working group.
... If you are an invited expert, you should have received an email with a link to make the legal agreements.
... If you are part of a membership organization, I believe you join after the main contact.

Rachael: Can you send a list of who has rejoined?

Michael: You have rejoined.
... I will ping people as the date approaches.
... The deadline is in a few weeks.
... February 3rd - 3 more weeks.

Alastair: Fill out the form, and you will be all set.
... any other questions?

Plan for virtual face to face, pre wide-review of WCAG 2.2.

Alastair: There will not be a CSUN meeting, but there will be a Silver Task Force meeting.
... If we had both Silver and AG there would be a lot to do.
... There was a discussion before Christmas about a separate face to face, but this is tricky with travel budgets.
... We would like to have a virtual face to face.
... A longer meeting with a particular focus.

<david-macdonald> +1+1+1

Alastair: Towards the end of March.
... Before WCAG 2.2 went to wide review draft, but after CSUN.

<AWK> Week of 3/17 or 3/24

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask about the agenda for that longer meeting

<AWK> (not the whole week)

John F: If we meet at the end of March before a wider review draft, is there an envisioned agenda?

Alastair: I think it will be an issue whack a mole
... For SC not quite approved to go into wide review draft
... To get agreement on those
... dealing with issues on a per SC basis
... Understanding documents, technique documents...
... there are 5 or 6 HTML files for one
... each will have a substantial set of documents

<alastairc> Rough timelines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U9dm8rFsyPLu_LeSmdJRKdNdXmQ2nlUFcC7clUFglzw/edit#gid=0

Michael: And we moved the wide review date later by a few weeks when we decided a virtual face to face will be happening

Alastair: Pending an exact date, any questions or comments?
... this would span a couple of time zones as well. 4-6 hours on one day, 4-6 hours on another day that week.

<JakeAbma> +1+1

Alastair: Who would be likely to attend at least one meeting that week.

<Detlev> +1

<AWK> +!

<Chuck> +1

<JustineP> +1

<AWK> +1

<kirkwood> +1

<MarcJohlic> +1

Alastair: this would be the week of the 24th of March

<Rachael> +1


<alastairc> +1

<david-macdonald> +_1

<bruce_bailey> +1

<Brooks> +1

<stevelee> +1

<Fazio> +1

Alastair: ok we have quite a few people that are willing and able to participate.

<david-macdonald> +1

Bruce: is that date pretty well settled?

Alastair: We have not yet settled on a specific week or days

Bruce: Which dates should we try to block out?

<david-macdonald> I'm teaching March 30-31 everything else good for me.

Alastair: I'm guessing the week of the 24th would be Tuesday and Wednesday
... If we assume the 24th and 25th

<david-macdonald> 24-25 good

Advance notice that the draft for 2.2 coming up

Alastair: Now we need a working draft ASAP
... hoping this will be next week for Focus Visible Enhanced.
... that will be the main change.
... when will we be able to publish this as an editor's draft?

Michael: I believe it is being automatically updated now. I did create one manually.
... if it is not happening automatically I can get that going today.

Alastair: The new SC has not been merged yet.

Michael: If there is a merging issue - usually I let you do the merging
... oh that one.
... I will try to work on this during the call today.

Alastair: That draft should be ready, and then a CFC to get confirmation and publish that.

WCAG 2.2 Dragging https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-dragging/

<alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-dragging/results

Alastair: This is a new success criteria that Detlev has been working on.
... quite a few saying the shall items are met.
... Jake has text additions on the success criteria
... did you have a chance to look at those Detlev?

Detlev: Yes, and so far I agree with them, but have not reviewed them all. I think it looks good.

Alastair: Chris Meeking had a comment around techniques to accomplish this in mobile.
... I don't know the answer to this.
... And he had a wording concern - pointer being confused with mouse.
... I had the largest comment: I think we need to be able to point to some implementations, for both pass and fail.
... They may exist, but it would be helpful to have links.

<bruce_bailey> Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LaVX-RTaLQL0tN4G3NhOTlmj16swt0VzC7ssaAjqIwg

Alastair: I also had a comment about the level it is set at.
... Pointer gestures is level A which is overlapping or has a narrower scope. This one is also proposed at A but it has a wider scope.
... In terms of the # of interactions it would cover.
... Assuming we agree it is good to do, it should be AA

Detlev: I don't know why I put it on A, AA is better given the other SC.

Alastair: I was wondering how much it overlaps with keyboard accessibility.
... If you have a drag and drop that is keyboard accessible, there would be a mechanism to do that.
... Is it making sure that single tap pointer input...If that is the case we could be clearer in the understanding document.

Detlev: I don't have the example ready, but will find it. There was 1 implementation providing a single pointer operable solution to sorting lists
... you have little things sticking out at the side which allow you to move it up and down.
... This is pointer and keyboard operable.
... This will be one implementation which would probably meet the SC for vertical dragging.
... It might be more difficult for resorting laterally as well as up and down.
... I agree with Alastair that there should be more, and they are difficult to find.
... If anyone has one which would fit, I would be delighted to get that information.

Alastair: Might be worth an email out to the list to gather general dragging implementations.

Andrew: I was going to respond to the comment about techniques for accomplishing this in mobile.
... I'm not sure if this is more difficult on mobile or desktop.
... Is it that when controls are implemented, there is the ability for dragging.
... I'm not particularly worried about using the term pointer but think we can clarify this. And there are W3C specs that discuss this.

David M: I am wondering about the keyboard. There is a lot of overlap with keyboard right now.

scribe: Are we trying to get away from an Etch a Sketch type use?
... Then there is the mobile part
... We operate at an HTTP level
... I'm a little confused about the overhang with keyboard.

<jon_avila> We want this to work on a mobile site without requiring a keyboard.

Detlev: I think this is similar to 2.5.1 where we really said it is not about keyboard operability - this is separate issue.

<AWK> I read this as written that there is zero overlap with keyboard now

Detlev: I would try to separate this
... This would not mean an element that would allow you to move things step wise.
... If there is a documented way of using the keyboard like the arrow up and down to move the elements, would meet keyboard operable in a separate way.
... You might have a different mechanism for keyboard.

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to say that we should be explicit that keyboard alternative is NOT sufficient

Bruce: I think we want to say this for the entire 2.5 guideline:
... All the criteria in 2.5 have to have a pointer operation.
... Having the keyboard equivalent doesn't meet the SC
... or others in the 2.5 series.
... How does voiceover address dragging?

Alastair: It is a common component of mobile apps, like sortable lists.
... I think you select an item, then go next or down, then select again to drop it.
... that's just from memory though.

Bruce: Can anyone name a shipping app for iPhone that uses drag?

<Fazio> sorting apps on home screen. does that count?

Bruce: The keyboard supports it now as an option, but I don't know of a native app.

<jon_avila> The home screen

Andrew: go to the display and brightness.

David M: on Mac OS you can

<jon_avila> you can drag things on home screen

Alastair: David F mentions the home screen
... I'm sure there are things in email as well.

<jon_avila> You hold and a menu comes up and you select edit home screen. Then you drag your figure around on the home screen with explore by touch.

Alastair: There are a variety of solutions. You pick the thing you want to drag, then there are items you can select from

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask about previous 'difficult' example

David M: On iOS you swipe up to make it go larger after selecting it

<AWK> David is that with VO on only?

Alastair: Several different options: incremental, swipe...I haven't found the Etch a Sketch options
... There are several people saying it doesn't have an overlap with keyboard

<jon_avila> For sliders there are rotor settings that you can use a adjust command to increment or decrement

Alastair: We found an example of keyboard access form with drag and drop in the past, and we couldn't find a way to solve that problem.

<david-macdonald> @AWK That's ios, will check now with TalkBack

Alastair: That's why I am asking for examples.

<AWK> @david - is that with VO on or off?

Alastair: If it is difficult to make it worth both for single pointer and keyboard accessible, then it could be a large stumbling block.
... Maybe it was from Facebook?

Detlev: That is the same one I was trying to remember before. You could be right that there was no way to have a pointer operable alternative to dragging
... The example was reordering items in a vertical stack.
... The additional arrows appearing would be helpful, but could be messy in a column moving one to the right or left.
... Where would you point the side ones?

<david-macdonald> @AWK VO on on ios

Detlev: It may be a bit of a headache
... We need to not rule out keyboard accessible implementations.
... I'm not sure where I stand on this. We should definitely get more examples.

<AWK> @david, I don't think that requiring VO to be used should count

Alastair: Looking through the comments, apart from feasibility, it looks like most people are onboard with how it is worded.
... especially if it follows the pointer gestures structure.

<AWK> @david, plus that requires a swipe, not a single tap

Alastair: Is anyone worried about the actual SC text assuming we get good solutions?

<david-macdonald> On Talkback put focus on slider and use Volume control hardware buttons on side of phone

Andrew: It hasn't changed since we got the survey?

<alastairc> All functionality that uses a dragging motion for operation can be operated by a single pointer without dragging, unless dragging is essential.

<bruce_bailey> @AWK but could not the VO method still potentially be used?

Alastair: Jake has suggested it follow the Pointer Gestures wording more closely, but it says the same thing

Andrew: Is a swipe dragging?

Alastair: To me that is a subset of dragging

<bruce_bailey> IMHO swipe is not dragging

Andrew: So you are not dragging anything, so people would say that is not dragging
... the Slide situation is what prompted some of this.

<david-macdonald> to say swipe is not dragging...

Andrew: You tap on the slider, then move your finger left or right, and that passes 2.5.1 but not this
... but if you tap on it, then swipe without holding on to it, that would pass this
... We want to say you would tap the thumb, then swipe, making it work with single taps.

<jon_avila> I thought we determined dragging was not a path but that a swipe was a path.

Alastair: Using a dragging motion, and a drag operation - those are 2 distincts things

<bruce_bailey> iOS has some settings so that two (and three) finger gestures are not needed

Detlev: I'm a bit nervous about it for exactly what Andrew mentioned. When is a drag a drag
... and what Alastair came up with defining the scope of pointer gestures.

<bruce_bailey> those iOS settings might help with dragging (without using VO)

Detlev: A superset by including all dragging - we made need changes to 2.5.1
... Then 2.5.1 could be more focused on swipes which are more gestural type of activities.
... The borderline is difficult.

<AWK> "For all functionality that uses a dragging motion for operation, an alternative mode of activation exists that can be operated using individual pointer clicks or taps, unless dragging is essential."

Alastair: one of the interations on pointer gestures was diagrams
... In my mind that is a superset.

Detlev: When you have to meet AA you would say the slider would not require you to have an initial direction, but would follow you anywhere

<alastairc> Diagram of 'freeform' dragging is the second picture here: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/pointer-gestures.html

Detlev: would need a single pointer alternative
... We could simplify 2.5.1 at the same time as introducing this one.

David M: I agree that drag and drop, and even the word drag, we don't want to conflate dragging with swiping

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask if this SC is meant to prohibit swipes

scribe: if there is no object to drag, then I think it is not a drag

<stevelee> +1

Alastair: Maybe we need a different term for that

<JF> +1

<Fazio> I would say dragging requires precision

<Fazio> swiping doesnt

Andrew: I have suggested a potential change above which may support this

John F: I think David F is making a good point - a swipe doesn't require any type of precision.

scribe: Dragging and dropping assumes a target that is being dropped on

Alastair: I used to assume the same thing, but some implementations of swipe are actually very precise.

<jon_avila> Swiping can be hard as well -- I agree with Alastair.

Alastair: E.g. a small one vs a large one

Detlev: Is that really a drag?
... It's not just a swipe

John F: I will use the idea of a slider even though that is not what we are talking about. It has a range.

<Fazio> I agree with JF

<jon_avila> you're not dragging anything though

scribe: As you drag it to the position, close is often not good enough.

Alastair: There is variability

<AWK> iOS: "A swipe gesture occurs when the user moves one or more fingers across the screen in a specific horizontal or vertical direction. Use the UISwipeGestureRecognizer class to detect swipe gestures."

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NGxqbwbcaG8dwSs5H2eTRy0gDELTdSuAi1ad0le4fDU/edit?ouid=101029316087123794349&usp=sheets_home&ths=true

Alastair: If anyone wants to go through a spreadsheet there are examples in this document
... I still come back to "more examples needed"

Jake: Your both right!
... But there is something else implemented: the speed of your swipe
... If you normally delete a list item by swiping more than 70 or 80%, and you only go 30% with a drag it shows another option beneath it
... It is not only the drag, the swipe, but it is also the speed with which you do it which makes it more complicated.

<Fazio> If this isn't already defined can wee define it and resolve this clarification issue

Jake: You have to go to a certain place to release it - you don't always have to go to a specific place

Alastair: The point that Detlev is trying to cover is the definitions for the pointer gesture one.
... You put your finger down, you move it to achieve something, then release
... I think it is covered.
... Like some of the multimedia ones where you do some things for level A, but an increased requirement for AA.
... To cover all dragging type gestures.

Detlev: Yes, that was the intention.

Alastair: For this one we don't have to get into the definition for all of them.
... It will be covered.
... Has that changed anyone's mind?
... Or Andrew's version?

(Someone): Mike Gower is not on the call and he might have an objection

Alastair: There were suggestions for the understanding document, but I think it is worth getting a sense of the level of support for this one
... Given that it is going beyond what we agreed to do
... I think my preferred direction is to spend a little time gathering examples in terms of solutions to typical dragging uses/scenarios
... list sort, placing an item in an area...
... There are a few typical drag scenarios
... Is it possible to gather examples, put links to them in the document, then give us a more concrete understanding of how it could apply?
... Detlev will you have time for this in the next few weeks?

Detlev: I can try, and I can send an email to the list to get examples.

Alastair: Google maps or other mapping providers might be something to think about.
... I think that would be a useful next step.

<AWK> Do we need a definition for "dragging motion"?

Alastair: If you still think it is a good idea, we can look at the understanding document a bit more.

<AWK> For example, dragging vs panning

Alastair: In regards to Andrew's question

Andrew: Google Maps on a desktop - they have the DVD type control so you can change the view
... on a mobile device, you don't have that, so you use your finger to drag around the map. Others might say panning/changing your view on it.
... A dragging motion, but I think this is part of the nuance we will need to respond to
... And is pinching a form of dragging?

Detlev: Pinching would fall under 2.5.1 in my opinion.

<bruce_bailey> Dragging maps is a good bad example!

Detlev: I think it is a definition of what is the object of dragging?
... We had other examples like the slider where the object is also there.
... It is several pictures you can pick up and swipe or drag
... You could argue that panning - the whole map is the element that you are dragging
... If we see pushback for interface controls for map on mobiles might be an exclusion for panning
... We could say we are talking about discrete objects across the screen.
... This could be an option to differentiate both

<david-macdonald> I would support that distinction

Andrew: That's a good reminder. Pinching would be under 2.5.1 so scratch that part of the comment

Alastair: If anyone knows of examples please send them in

<Fazio> I remember there used to be directional arrows for that on maps

Alastair: At the bottom in the next steps
... We have talked through Wilco's comment
... Just a few wording issues
... The main thing is examples of implementations.

WCAG 2.2 Visual indicators https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Visual_indicators/

David M: There is currently 2 versions I am looking at

scribe: The second one is the fall back version

<bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Visual_indicators/results

scribe: The 2nd one says don't do the dumb thing
... There are some weaknesses to the fallback one
... Might have been Abi

<bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WhZAbswvPHs7A3stfqM_ATsaBHPeGbHtARcmaKMck1U

scribe: There were some comments that requires if you go to the passive version of it
... Plugins don't work on mobile
... That's the problem with the fallback
... The active one has weaknesses too
... The word purpose was added by the COGA team
... (reads both versions)
... The reason I had the fallback one was because I had success with the stylus
... All the links got underlines, but it relies on a plugin

Alastair: Detlev had comments around the testability aspects
... (reads from comments)
... The testability and what constitutes a pass is what I mostly struggled with

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1szUxsXszXx2pRRScIr90as7fDgn7VZdxQsh2v6lZrfg/edit

Alastair: Seeing the examples that Abi James provided
... They are probably UK based
... Text, links, some with icons, some without
... A jumble of things that may or may not be interactive
... Things that are not user interface components has things that make them look like they are

David M: The current language wouldn't be a failure for inactive components that look like active components.

scribe: You would fail by creating something interactive that doesn't look like it

Alastair: A star rating with underlined text next to it - would that pass?

David M: Yes, that would pass.

scribe: It has an indicator around it that is 3:1
... The purpose, then, that is a big can of worms
... Society knows that the checkmark is Nike

<Brooks> +q

scribe: they no longer need the word "Nike"
... We have a whole bunch of components that do that.
... The down arrow on a select box
... The point of the SC was to make it so that people could see that something was an active interface component
... I am leaning towards the fallback version because I am finding issues with the active text

<laura> Jennie are you ready for me to start scribing?

Alastair: Let's focus on the active one

Go ahead Laura - thanks!

<laura> Scribe: Laura

Detlev: depends on if there is text above.
... need an awarenss of context.
... difficult to see that this is going to work with all impementations.

brooks: posted examples on the ist.
... boils down to: does the interface needs addtional instructions?
... old fashiond radio butions don’t need it,
... defacto standards have been established.
... what needs to be clicked on? Users needs to know what needs to be interacted with.

AC: need a fall back of instuctions?

brooks: not just interactive. what does it do and how do I interact with it?

<david-macdonald> When I (David M) was teaching a mobile class I talked about this SC and the developers and designers wanted to ensure that we don’t discourage developers from making the hit area bigger than the visual affordance. In other words, sometimes they make a button that looks a little smaller than it’s hit area to make the visual design make sense, meanwhile, if the user misses the target a bit, the hit area extends beyond the button a bit so the[CUT]

brooks: boils down to purpose and how do I interact with it?
... may need to add additional instructions.

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to question the "star rating" example

<JF> https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/forms/custom-controls/#a-star-rating

jf: concerned with star rating “buttion”
... they are not buttons.
... concern that we don’t have source code.
... we are mudding the water with this example.

ac: for this example don’t think that it the code is relavant.

jf: have a concern with this visual example.
... assuptions that may or may not be true.

Rachael: want to explore the active SC text.

<Detlev> Is there a link to the example by Abi James ?

Rachael: doesn’t say state (hover, etc.)

<Detlev> ta, Alastair

AC: needs testing and examples.
... gather different examples.

dm: the Active SC says, Each active user interface component provides a visual indicator,
... mobile class I talked about this SC and the developers and designers wanted to ensure that we don’t discourage developers from making the hit area bigger than the visual affordance.
... we saw the share button. That woiuld not pass.
... started out with affordances.

ac: not about hit area but purpose.

<Fazio> Agree with you Alastair

Detlev: lots of examples that are conventional that don’t need another indicator.

<Fazio> sorry. Sick. My responses are delayed

<kirkwood> “understanding” is what is key for COGA

Detlev: extra outhines could create extra noise.
... judgement call. difficult line to draw.
... not much chance to successed as written.

<jon_avila> I would agree that affordance is more important than hit area

awk: agree with Detlev.
... maybe narrowly focus the SC.
... looking at Jennie’s doc.
... lots of examples that are difficult.
... basing the SC on data.
... not sure how we narrow it while making it encompassing.

<alastairc> https://alastairc.uk/tests/wcag21-examples/non-text-contrast.html

ac: page I made for nontext contrast.
... would be help to have examples like the one AC made.

dm: retailers spend a lot of resources on visual indicators.
... leaning towards the passive SC.
... don’t know of a path forward for tha active sc.

brooks: critical to consider the original SC.

<kirkwood> Shouldn’t a button by definition look like, or react to, it being pressed?

brooks: does it impact PWD non-proportionally?

<jon_avila> too many borders everywhere could also be clutter on the page.

ac: feeling it is likely to catch things that are not problems and make unnecessary work.
... to move this SC forward need examples.

<jon_avila> when I created my own Stylus view of a page there were too many borders -- and I actually made them low contrast to show them but to not overpower the page itself

<Fazio> reducing page clutter is a goal of COGA too

ac: for the passive SC, people thing that it may not be used by the target audience.

<Fazio> because of mental fatigue, stress, etc

dm: I could work on a plug in this summer.

ac: on the passive one, what are we asking authors to do?

<jon_avila> To David's point -- it's not so imply with CSS rules and Canvas and other elements. Any passive one would need to say it would need to work with document level style sheet overrides such as what we did with the 1.4.12

dm: soft goals. putting it on authors radar.
... and dumb things that authors do.

<jon_avila> I provided example from online office applications where stylus did not show the focus for outlines.

<jon_avila> Can you provide David's stylus CSS

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WhZAbswvPHs7A3stfqM_ATsaBHPeGbHtARcmaKMck1U/edit#

dm: yes give stylus CSS a try.

<AWK> @David it would be interesting to use those settings in Stylish for a week of regular use of the web and web apps.

<JustineP> Off topic comment for discussion later...is the intent to keep the SC at the A priority level or is consideration being given to AA?

dm: Active SC is very persciptive.

ac: need examples with screenshots that pass/fail.
... can anyone help with that?

dm: I will keep working on it.

brooks: somthing similar that I did on friday?

AC: yes. have good and bad examples any why they would or not pass.

one column of scrrnshots.

scribe: leave open

WCAG 2.2 Icon description re-review https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/icon-desc-acceptance/results

ac: split on if meets the Success Criteria "Shall" requirements.

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HzSsCGelWfz_Z-M7NyUzJOvl1A1kAStyl8epYdpZhoA/edit#heading=h.u26dvsexm72w

dm: narrow sc.
... walks the middle ground.
... “For icons that act as labels or instructions, a mechanism is available to display a text equivalent visually, on or before the first occurrence of an icon on the page.”
... could be accomplished by providing a legend for all the icons before the first occurrence of an icon on the page. It could also be a tooltip on all occurrences of an icon or only on the first occurrence.
... gets away from extra keyboard noise.
... have good model being put together.
... have examples in there.
... minimal effort by developers.
... example in code pen. Static and active.

<alastairc> https://codepen.io/Moiety/pen/LaPvWy

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say my comments still seem to stand, to me.

mg: icon t means something we already have a keyborad requirement.
... not sure it disproportionately afftects PWD

<jon_avila> I absolutely disagree with Mike. Figuring out what an icon is much more difficult for people with cognitive disabilities. It also impacts users with low vision as you have to gather surrounding info.

dm: think that COGA would disagree.

<jon_avila> I see all sorts of icons that don't have any labels even with mouse.

ac: most icons have some kind of label.

<kirkwood> disagree

<jon_avila> I disagree with Mike. I see icons every day that don't have any affordance.

Jennie: example: if an icon sightly changes.
... can be very difficut for coga.

mg: example where there isn’t a label?

david: edit box is an example.

<kirkwood> I’m not sure a title attribute satisfies cognitive disability needs

<jon_avila> I see icons on apple.com without labels - search icons, shopping bag, etc.

<Brooks> If you force users to interact with an icon before they understand what it means or does, that absolutely impacts some people with disabilities disproportionately because, for them, it's takes longer to interact with page content.

<jon_avila> Almost every hamburger menu don't have text labels.

df: google products have no lables.
... mental fatigue is a problem.

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that what David just described is not addressed by this SC

df: trash can dosen’t look like a trash can in gmail.

mg: data seems so few and far between.
... all my gmail icons have lables.

<Jennie> One example: social media icons at bottom of Freedom Scientific page https://www.freedomscientific.com/products/software/jaws/

ac: instances of icons without lables.
... sc solves discoverablity but doesn’t solve display of the lables.

<jon_avila> I see comment and fork icons on github with no visual labels on hover or focus.

dm: text would show the same time as activation.

<Jennie> Another example: in desktop browser interface for LinkedIn, start a post has camera, video camera icon - no hover text or on keyboard focus

dm: title attribute sometimes shows up underneath the mouse.

Detlev: if you have to tap and activate at the same time may be difficult.

<alastairc> https://codepen.io/dmacd100/pen/eYYBWNK

dm: have an example of that.
... no way to tab on mobile.

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that the second sentence is covered by 1.4.11

dm: reason why we speent 8 years on wcag 2.0.

ac: will need to leave open.
... please look through examples.

dm: be glad to work on it more if people have more comments.

ac: agenda isn on the agenda page.

<alastairc> trackbot end meeting

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.154 (CVS log)
$Date: 2020/01/07 18:03:40 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154  of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56  
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Default Present: +, alastairc, JakeAbma, Fazio, Rachael, stevelee, Jennie, Detlev, Chuck, bruce_bailey, JustineP, MichaelC, JF, Brooks, kirkwood, !, _1, jon_avila, Laura, david-macdonald, mbgower

WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: (no, one))
Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
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Present: + alastairc JakeAbma Fazio Rachael stevelee Jennie Detlev Chuck bruce_bailey JustineP MichaelC JF Brooks kirkwood jon_avila Laura david-macdonald mbgower
Found Scribe: Jennie
Inferring ScribeNick: Jennie
Found Scribe: Laura
Inferring ScribeNick: laura
Scribes: Jennie, Laura
ScribeNicks: Jennie, laura

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
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Found Date: 07 Jan 2020
People with action items: 

WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
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