Linda: welcome everybody. Jeremy
sent his regrets as he isn't feeling well so I will be chairing
solo
... I see some new faces so will explain how we work in this
group, we use W3C process and tools eg WebEx instead of Goto
Meeting
... we use irc and encourage everyone to join as that is where
we take minutes and will be rotating scribe
... you can also make corrections realtime
<ChrisLittle> s/realtine/realtime/
Linda: agenda is partially fixed for remote attendees, other parts fluid so suggestions welcome
Ted:cite> Ted: I work at W3C and have been focused on automotive standards.
Linda: I'm Linda, chair of this group and based in the Netherlands
Peter: I'm with Ordinance Survey
Fabien: I'm with EU Parliament
Chris: UK Met Office and have been part of OGC for number of years, working on a new initiative for environmental data
Hubert: EUROControl. trying to promote the use of technologies in ATM
Mark: also with OS, project for business and government
Heidi: Danish Academy at Data Supply
Joost: focus on linked data and metadata, I'm with Natural Resources of Canada
Christine: independent consultant, focused on augmented reality
Stephane: IGN hydrology and metadata
Erwin: University of Twente and cadastre
Gabriella: I'm a grad student working with Geonovum
[agenda review]
Simon: thank you Linda for
reviewing the pull request. the last working draft is about a
year old now. Editor's draft points to this version
... this was prompted by some work for a research organizations
out of Queensland during vegetation, soil, biodiversity etc
surveys
... they needed a data model to combine their findings
... this revealed some gaps and prompted these extensions
... one or more properties are held constant so you can observe
variations, could be sensor readings across time, space
etc
... OSN ontology did not support this so added
ObservationCollection - series of observations
... what is most interesting in the variation
... if you allow ObservationCollections to be nested you allow
for more scenarios
... the information variation can be represented multiple
ways
https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-ssn-ext
Simon: I have generated the rdf
and turtle files for these. the second set of concerns was
desire to represent the featureOfInterest in sampling
... this facilitates data discovery
... this is one additional class and four additional
properties. I have built the sparql construct queries that
would fill in the gaps for eg ultimateFeatureOfInterest
... anyone familiar with this document will notice it is
substantially rewritten
... I want to work more on the alignment section at the end
Linda: I was in the observations
and measurements WG and they are interested in this as
well
... should you point from individual observation to collection
or vice versa?
Simon: doesn't matter in RDF world as they are just pointers. collections are synthetic representations where the Observations more defined
[refers back to document diagram of different representations of a collection]
Simon: I am following that group on Github
Linda: some didn't like the term ultimate in ultimateFeatureOfInterest and may propose an alternate
Simon: interested in the suggestions
Linda: we want to promote this further on W3C REC track
Simon: I would be content with a W3C Note
Linda: as an Interest Group we are not able to produce RECs but Notes
Simon: as far as W3C is concerned
is to publish an updated public Working Draft for this
document
... as far as I know, it just requires consent from this
group
Ted: happy to help with the formalities, also "EverGreen" process is being discussed and appropriate for things like ontologies
Simon: currently in a branch and
happy to merge when appropriate
... should I announce this to the group?
Linda: yes and we will merge
after the feedback
... thank you Simon
[Web Video Map Tracks]
Rob: I am an Invited Expert in this group, leading the development of WebVMT
@@slides
Rob: it is designed for Web
primarily for indexing and sharing. webvmt.org gives an
overview, has a blog and some demos including a new one from
last OGC meeting in June in Belgium
... I have since edited and made it more interesting
Rob: there was a metadata
search breakout session in June, to index video metadata to eg
search by location with a margin or error (~10m)
... I added those search use cases in September. you can have
remote maintenance of a windfarm based on evaluations from
drones
... there is a github issue for data synchronization, arbitrary
data in JSON format but intended primarily for GeoJSON
... you could attach to all sorts of sensors
... WICG (Web Incubator Community Group) was proposed at W3C
TPAC in Lyon for exposing metadata from browsers
... there has been work done on this in the past but not
agreement nor support. interest renewed so hopefully will be
supported in browsers
... Chris Needham (sp?) participated in the latest TPAC in
Japan and proposed user generated events instead of agent
... Web Player - JS playback engine, demo at webvmt.org
... finally a video capture app, trying to build a community
around it at present
... a couple things that have come up DataCue - when page
assets load there are global datacues - level of detail in map
and when the video plays a timed datacue
... last I wanted to discuss Metadata search. there are two
processes going on, the initial indexing that crawls the assets
and extracts the metadata
... creating a db
... then there is the searching process, make a request to the
search engine and results are offered through the datacute
interface
... I am planning to do a study to proove it works and quantify
the performance
... there is also an ethical use of location data discussion
which may feed into a best practices document
... you may want to protect against unauthorized facial
recognition for example
... you want to be able to restrict a crawler trying to index
video for facial recogition and block with webvmt
... I'm looking to get work started in the benchmark program. I
am trying to track down geotagged video datasets, welcome
pointers
... please introduce people you may know who may be interested
in this
... there is a github issue on @@ and camera attributes - the
gimbal in drones instead of fixed dashcam
Linda: you said you are in the incubation phase and getting some involvement from WICG
Rob: that is making progress
[Ted mulling over who he may know that might be interested]
Fabien: I saw the video you shared earlier but wonder if you have examples for 360 videos (for AR) or if you even tried it yet?
Rob: this is a draft, please look at the existing use cases around 360 video. any specifics?
Fabien: it should be
intergratable, not sure if anyone has tried so far. I am
starting to think of longshow - videos of long traversal of
Norway
... I don't have any examples yet, do you?
Rob: yes, there was something at
ethical location event last month. there was one for military
uses to investigate a location
... you can convert from other formats to webvmt and bring it
online
... it is an enabling technology, allowing you to take existing
data and bring it in and applicable to 360 video
... Christine who is there mentioned a VR tutorial use case,
evidence of action. used to prove someone followed a defined
procedure - data annotated video
Chris: there is a use case we have in evaluating cloud observations
[power strips arrive in room to applause]
<utopiah> ChrisLittle: thanks, great example, any link to it please?
<ChrisLittle> Rob: will look for public link to 360 deg cloud observing training videos
Peter: SVG and other groups have
joined to help with Web Mapping, this has turned out to be a
rather big job
... there are several existing popular implementations
... we have fundamental use cases already broadly
implemented
... others being documented in realtime, will find link and
post
... issues are being used to gather feedback on that
document
... there is a bit of something for everyone and may be worth a
review by this group
... we had a f2f meeting at TPAC in Japan in September,
attended by some browser and adjacent browser developers
... latter is helpful as it brings in more (Agalia and
Beaucoup) than just the handful of browser vendors
... Firefox, Chrome were part of the discussion as well. we
need to get a good community to support mapping on the
web
... in OGC world there is the testbed program (currently #15,
wrapping up) including vector tile parsing with interesting
results
... MapML is an HTML extension that would try to capture the
spirit/essence of our use cases and requirements
... this year's work was focused on vector encoding,
representing properties in html
... other coordinate based features are in JSON and using CSS
selector model to style parts
... hopefully some of this work will continue in testbed
16
... we also talked with W3C about the possibility of holding a
workshop on maps on html
... curious if Ted can help with that
<peterr> https://maps4html.github.io/HTML-Map-Element-UseCases-Requirements/
http://www.w3.org/2003/08/Workshops/}
Ted provides some generalities on W3C workshops, strategy and suggest 1:1 call with Peter
<ChrisLit> Link to 360 video cloud trainaing video http://archived.informaticslab.co.uk/projects/skyview.html
[lunch]
https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/rechartering.md
brinkwoman: W3C groups have an
end date
... ... the group has been useful joint W3C and OGC
discussions
... ... usually there has been a single person driving each
work item
... ... the group has mainly been driving standardization work,
but not really worked as a group
... ... discussed the proposal with the co-chair Jeremy
Tandy
... ... we think the group should be extended
... ... (goes through the list of items in "SDW-IG will" of the
rechartering document)
PeterParslow: There is a lot of
work in OGC leveraging Web standards, but these are run within
OGC only, because they are simply using the standards, no
coordination is required
... ... do we need to add something to clarify the boundary
brinkwoman: Yes, the group has more a coordination role at this point. There might be options for collaboration in the future, Maps for HTML, GeoSPARQL, etc.
peterr: It would be good, if the group would help to engage other W3C members to participate in the workshop
brinkwoman: Next item is a coordinating role between OAB and TAG and maybe ask them for feedback on draft standards from the other organisation
brinkwoman: ... also review OGC IP idea tracker
MichaelGordon: not everything ends up in the tracker, maybe talk to the OGC IP staff directly
brinkwoman: Next
is a periodic review of the OGC tech trends
...
W3C has something similar
ted: the next item is about community groups, which may be a good option for example for the WebVMT work
brinkwoman: Yes,
this group is an early forum until other fora are established
in W3C or OGC
...
next is about tracking progress of work items in the W3C
strategy funnel (this items needs to be reworded to be
clearer)
RobSmith: Where would you see WebVMT's home, if not in the SDWIG?
brinkwoman: It clearly has a home here, but at some point a group that can publish new standards needs to be formed
RobSmith: So what does that mean for WebVMT?
ted: The SDWIG could publish a Note to capture the status, to inform the W3C and OGC membership and continue the work in a group that can publish a standard
RobSmith: Thanks, will take the conversation about next steps offline
brinkwoman: Will talk about the strategy funnel later
brinkwoman: ... next is support for developing working group charter
brinkwoman: ... also publishing errata to existing documents
MichaelGordon: Is, for example, the work done by Simon on SSN (not exactly errata) covered by the list?
brinkwoman: Yes, we will update the charter to cover the existing work
HeidiV: The W3C DXWG is working on profiles, OGC does that, too. Should we add something here?
brinkwoman: The focus is geospatial aspects, but profiles is probably a generic topic and not geospatial
ted: Maybe we can help to identify relevant interest in OGC and W3C when charters are written
brinkwoman: But joining groups like the DXWG for non-W3C members would not be possible
ted: Yes, the standard rules for W3C working groups would apply
ted: ... everyone can create issues or provide pull requests
brinkwoman: The SDWIG can play a role in this, contact the chairs if there is a need and we can see how we can help
brinkwoman: Ted, could you tell us more about "living standards"?
ted: W3C has a formal process document and is introducing the idea of "evergreen standards" so that they can continually evolve
ted: ... this is especially important for ontologies
ted: ... still unclear how this works with time-limited charters, W3C working on this
ted: ... this IG is in a way doing this already
brinkwoman: Could we also have no end date?
<ted> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Evergreen_Standards
ted: This is probably going to far, but the rules are going to be debated for a while
<peterr> +1
<RobSmith> +1
brinkwoman: Is there general support for progressing this?
<ClemensP_> (nodding in the room)
<ChrisLit> +1 to progressing
ted: Are there other topics for collaboration beside the ones discussed?
ted: ... probably "profiles" that was mentioned
HubertLepori: Would DCAT also be a topic? Aviation domain is looking at DCAT and W3C is working on DCAT 2
MichaelGordon: Could we also inform W3C members about the work on OGC APIs?
ted: Next TPAC is in Vancouver
ted: ... maybe it could be presented in the plenary, we could try to get it on the agenda
PeterParslow: Should we be explicit about the list of work items in the charter, like WebVMT, to give a more concrete about the work of the IG
brinkwoman: Yes, we can do that
https://github.com/w3c/sdw/issues/1143
<MathiasBonduel> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1bvebnuH_uPAIt9LROcL688LWTco97-jHV73zygaiw5U/edit?usp=sharing
MathiasBonduel: (presents the slides)
MathiasBonduel: ... CG is a diverse group with 20-30 active participants, supports a yearly workshop and has liaisons with several other groups/initiaives
MathiasBonduel: ... collects use cases, requirements, develops best practices and ontologies, in the future evolve to a W3C WG
AnnaWagner: (explains the Building Topology Ontology, BOT, and the Building Product Ontology, BPO)
AnnaWagner: ... open how this relates to geometry
MathiasBonduel: Many of the use cases relate to geometry
MathiasBonduel: ... a wide range of geometry representations are required with different semantics
MathiasBonduel: ... more requirements for processing and querying, 3D is importaant, parametric geometries are needed
MathiasBonduel: ... simple and modular ontologies are preferred
MathiasBonduel: ... analysis of different RDF-based geometries / ontologies has been done
AnnaWagner: (explains OpenCASCADE Ontology)
MathiasBonduel: Different options for geometry representations and for linking exist
MathiasBonduel: ... overall goal is to have a domain-agnostic mechanism of linking geometry in a Semantic Web context
MathiasBonduel: ... text encodings (WKT, GML), binary as text, URI to reference a file
AnnaWagner: (explains OMG levels, OMG = Ontology for Managing Geometry)
MathiasBonduel: (explains FOG = File Ontology for Geometry formats)
MathiasBonduel: Geometry is probably out-of-scope for the CG since it has a much broader scope
MathiasBonduel: ... opportunities for collaboration: Use OMG/FOG/GOM as input to standardization?
MathiasBonduel: ... Linking geometry seems to have overlap with OWL Space proposal
MathiasBonduel: ... Spatial querying in SPARQL - support for different geometry schemas
MathiasBonduel: ... Include use cases and people from other W3C groups?
peterr: (points out relationship with Maps for HTML work and potential exchange of ideas)
brinkwoman: Very interesting work, clearly related to the OWL Space / GeoSPARQL 2.0 work, currently discussed in the OGC Geosemantics working group.
brinkwoman: ... Maybe get involved in these discussions, there is a meeting tomorrow at 14:00 CET
brinkwoman: ... maybe there could be a joint meeting to discuss this in more depth
MathiasBonduel: That is already good feedback, this could be a step in the right direction
josephabhayaratna: The Geosemantics DWG is working on a White Paper to document the current state and describe where we want to go. The work presented would be valuable input to that paper.
MathiasBonduel, AnnaWagner: We can join the call tomorrow
brinkwoman: I will provide the connection details
MathiasBonduel: There is a concern that things can get complex very quickly, but the goal is to keep it simple enough for implementation. Finding the right balance...
<Zakim> ted, you wanted to mention indoorGML and ask about building service extensions
ted: an observation and a question - we talked before; now the new team contact. I wanted to make the connection to IndoorGML for indoor navigation. Intelligent Transportation Systems and Smart Cities are also potential domains to involve.
<ted> i'm coming more from transportation needs and wondering if you have heard of anyone extending your modular approach for transportation needs eg smartcities or its
<brinkwoman> solving audio problem...
<brinkwoman> we are reconnecting, but wifi is really slow at the moment
<josephabhayaratna> Unfortunately I have to go. It's nearing 130am here, and I'm fading!
<josephabhayaratna> I'll see (more likely hear) those that are coming to the Geosemantics DWG tomorrow
George: interest group gets
involved, when an item is a trend what warrants action we
create a roadmap
... you've heard future directions and about testbeds
<brinkwoman> Slides for OGC technology trends: https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=91143
<brinkwoman> Esa Tiainens slides: https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=91212
Esa describes linkage on slide 4
[slide 5 current stage]
Esa: we have low hanging fruit
from Nordic mapping agencies
... report on implementation on how it can be possible
... providing use and access to data on web
... idea is to provide successive stages [slide 6]
... benefits can be verified
... we found this is the only way, as you cannot get funding
for linking data topic
... need to provide benefits
[slide 7]
Esa: this explains semantics, rdf
triple store
... entity in service interface are provided by uris and how to
access the store for the content
... it is possible to setup user/ux and search for features by
concepts, attributes or attribute values
... we have tested this and it works
... we drop search terms that don't match
... user can select reseources they want to use
... you can provide error descriptions
... we also have elastic search indexing and use that on the
backend while the front looks the same
[slide 8]
Esa: problem was granularity was
not precise enough
... fragmenting as well, we switched to a more simple
approach
... what we had to do for the UX was make an alphabetical set
of terms in a drop down box
... usability issues but maximized results
... one idea was to use enriched and transformed ontology like
GEMET
[slide 9]
Esa: we are in a proof of concept
stage
... what we need for deployment is a simple and easy guidelines
for using different tools like shacl, prov-o and shex
... there seems to be many unclear tools that have different
aggregations, need a clear roadmap to solve
... need access to metadata, different metadata for different
uses
... it can be carried out by experiments but need clear
guidelines with tools. hackathons could help move it
forward
... at the moment we have a considerable number of tools and EU
SDR
... it would be possible to use a graph representation to make
this easier to understand the content
... possible also to make a hypergraph
... it can be organized into individual sub collections
[slide 10]
Esa: data contents can be uploaded on a web connection from statics Finland and NLS (national land survey of Finland)
[slide 13]
Esa: process is complicated,
called IGALOD
... we can also connect non-spatial data such as census
data
... workers are allowed to use data based on their tasks
... end of slides are some examples from @@x project, funding
from government is ending
... that is about the whole picture. I want to go back to slide
number 9
... guidelines for these tools would be helpful
Ted: perhaps you can form some of
your impressions on which tools are useful for what purposes,
questions and after they are organized can reach out to the
tool developers to see if they can help provide some
guidance
... I know some of the developers involved in them but not an
expert myself
Esa: we want to provide unique set of recommended tools and consolidate
Slides for OGC technology trends: https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=91143
George: making data on the web
discoverable. what is new or emerging, some coming from Graph
workshop W3C put on
... there was support for adding temporal to graph query
languages
... there were two new works to come out of JTC1 declaritive
propery graph language for SQL and GQL
... SQL/PGQ and GQL relate to one another with some overlap on
property graphs
... Tobias from Neo4j will be attending tomorrow to tell us
more
... two big questions, should there be different trends coming
from spatial data on the web (slide 1? top right)
... we can look at the funnel to see if there is anything
new
... there has been quite a bit of discussion around building
models. there are other trends around 3d models and like but
lack linked data
https://github.com/w3c/strategy/projects/2?card_filter_query=label%3Ageospatial
<brinkwoman> https://github.com/opengeospatial/OGC-Technology-Trends
Christine: they were not
interested in spatial data (Asure Spatial Anchors) use cases
back in June but wanted to further MS halolens before bringing
it to the W3C Immersive Web group
... SLAM was part of indoor mapping pilot over the last 12
months. taking something from point cloud for realtime
use
... I see a high need and utility for coordination with
Immersive Web group, emphasis was more on VR of late
... AR discussions reopened a couple months ago after VR. we
are seeing implementations in Chrome, delays in FF and
elsewhere
... there are other proprietary projects for anchors in the
real world compared to what MS could do with their ASA
... any device needing to know its location on x,y,z axis,
pitch, yaw and roll plus temporal has shared needs (including
autonomous vehicles
... also pertinent is scale - planetary, inside a
building...
George: may be worth reaching out to Geolocation WG
Ted: more for semi-location for
browser use cases - where in the world is the user but not the
degree of precision we need by any means
... my predecessor in this group, Francois, is involved in
AR/VR etc whereas I am not
Linda: there is a geolocation sensor proposal in devices and sensors group
Christine: they are on my liaison list
Linda: we can help with that
Christine: not sure who is on that from our side
Ted: on W3C end that would be Dominique Hazel-Massieux
Christine: I know him well and he
knows my bias
... Fabien who was here earlier is very involved in AR as
well
... he and Josh had a hackathon this last weekend
Linda: statistics on the Web best
practices is within this group, charter will be extended and
work is taking place in Semantics Statistics CG
... they could publish a note through SDWIG
... we didn't discuss SDW Best Practices but seem we are
lacking people
Rob: for BP there is ethical use of spatial data topic. Michael is picking it up and just want to flag it at this point
Linda: there are some more
general bits on ethics in the current document
... it doesn't explain how to be ethical, you are right it can
be developed further
<MichaelGordon> Sorry, had to attend another API meeting. On the ethical side I've raised an issue in Github
<MichaelGordon> For other BP stuff - not much movement since the last meeting. We have some minor errata to fix that is waiting on OGC Policy and Procedure update
<RobSmith> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/issues/1137
Rob: I also wanted to Geopose that Christine raised regarding camera attributes and establishing a mapping
<MichaelGordon> for corrigendium on best practices. There are other issues in the BP project but not really anybody to help out on them
Christine: you want cameras to have an implementation of Geopose?
Rob: yes, also zoom
Christine: that could fall into
MIPI Alliance scope. they work on specs for components for
mobile phones and also in automobiles
... data transfers, queries etc fall to Khronos group
... they have some camera specs and api definition. that work
stopped due to lack of participation from camera
manufacturers
Rob: WebVMT is a lightweight
solution, does not need to be exhaustive but more
rudimentary
... knowing where to look is helpful
Christine: for GeoPose you can
say cameras should follow six degrees of freedom protocol
... stay tuned...
<RobSmith> Sorry. Missed Linda's parting comment as audio dropped completely
@@h: earlier on ethical topic, nearby is GDPR and we do not have legal expertise present but maybe should for the Best Practices
RobSmith, she suggested you follow Geopose. trusted you would as Christine admits you are better than she at following up
<RobSmith> Thanks
Linda: there are outstanding
issues on BP document but nobody taking it up at present
... Michael would welcome the help
... important to keep it current
... practices evolve as should the document
<brinkwoman> ted: motivation for workshop was to increase awareness and to involve more standards groups
<brinkwoman> ... we advertised sdwbp, ssn
<brinkwoman> ... short takeaway is that there should be joint work, working on liaisons.
<brinkwoman> ... mix of academia, standards, industry (eg uber)
<brinkwoman> ... trying to reduce the nr of ontologies that are out there
<brinkwoman> ... more on this tomorrow in the Transportation ad hoc
<brinkwoman> ... top priority is to have an ontology on routing
<brinkwoman> .. something like an observations ontology on top
Ted: session tomorrow afternoon on this but that is the short version
[discussion on terminology for engaging others, avoid ontology, semantic web and even data model. use vocabulary]
[adjourned]